The "no means try harder" idea

Perhaps this is naive of me, but if I was a guy and a woman said no, I'd take it at that and leave. If it turned out she really meant yes and I'd 'passed up' my shot with her, even better! I wouldn't want to deal with a woman like that anyway. Her bajingo can't be that awesome to warrant putting up with that kind of crap.

Why would a guy want to chase after a woman who plays games? Who says no but means chase me? Seems to me the only thing he's 'losing out' on by not pursuing her is a lot of drama.

Don't bother. Go find another one that doesn't play games and date her. She's prob better in bed anyway

Speaking as a man, to me, a "no" is a "no." Period.

I've heard people discuss the idea that women mean something else when they say "no" (And I'm discussing women and men interactions here because of the OP, other posts, and how often rape culture usually pans out; I'm not dismissing same-sex concerns, the fact that men can be raped, or how there are more than two genders) due to socialization (the breakdown given by the OP), and while I acknowledge that we don't live in a healthy sex-positive society (I speak from a U.S. perspective), I dismiss that excuse. Too many women I know have been conditioned not to say "no" because they've been taught to prioritize men's feelings and comfort above their own comfort or safety.

If someone says "no," that's the end of it. I don't second-guess their judgment or their autonomy. I might think that I'm a nice guy and people could like me if they spent time with me or got to know me, but I'm not entitled to a chance to plead that case.

I'd rather miss an opportunity with that presumption (OP interpretation 1 or 2) than press someone's boundaries. Every time.

As a man, I don't get it either. Just like I never understood the woman who insists on "testing" her man. Moment I hear that notion, it is get up, rip the test, walk out so to speak. I may be a gamer but I will take my games on console, PC, and handheld.

Also your bajingo comment.....LOL

I agree with you. Everyone, both men and women, should be educated about consent and rape because I think both genders (to varying degrees) add to rape culture and gender inequality on other scales. Not just men and I'm not saying that to excuse them because they should be held fully accountable for their actions regardless, but I've read, heard, and seen both men and women (teachers, mothers, fathers, family members, etc) reinforce certain gender roles, sexist attitudes, and rape culture consciously and subconsciously with excuses like "boys will be boys", or "she was asking for it with that skirt", or reprimanding young girls for behaving in an aggressive manner.

So, if what I am saying makes sense, I think ending rape culture in general begins with both genders, but men definitely do have a greater part of it in creating a violence-free culture (which would eliminate things such as violence against women).

Definitely agreed.

Though I've noticed that a lot of the rape apologism on women's side of the equation seems to stem from this sense of...hmm, how to put it...false security, I guess. A lot of women like to reassure themselves that they'll never be raped because they're smart, or they dress conservatively, or they don't drink. :\ It's this horrible, awful misogynistic cycle of fear, and it seems some women deal with that fear by assuring themselves that they're not like those OTHER women and won't "make the mistake" of "getting" raped.

They don't realize that just by being born with a vagina, they're a target, and it doesn't matter what they wear or do or where they go.

So I agree. I think education needs to happen on ALL sides when it comes to rape and consent. A lot of women don't realize when they've been raped and try to justify it in their heads and make it their fault ("I didn't say no", "I must have sent the wrong signal", etc) and a lot of rapists don't believe they're rapists. :\ And the shaming needs to stop, from men and women alike. That's not "boys being boys", that's men being rapists. And I hate that excuse so much. I trust men to be more than slavering cavemen but rather, y'know...decent human beings.

There's also a big problem with people believing that just because someone has consented to one kind of touch/activity, they have consented to ALL types. And that really messes with us all. I had hugged the guy that groped my ass. (I'm a hugger, I like hugs, it was at a geeky con where hugs kinda happen.) Me consenting to a hug and wearing a short skirt was not consenting to having my ass squeezed and groped. But that's what made it so hard for me to report it, because I figured, well, I hugged him, I sent the wrong signal, it was my fault, I asked for it; I felt very guilty. It took a long time for me to get my head around the "consenting to one kind of touch is not consenting to it all" idea. =__= And I think a lot of people struggle with that.

It's the reason a lot of people believe you can't rape if you're married/in a sexual relationship.

I -- I -- Um. "Fake" no? But -- but why would you tell me 'no' as a joke?

That is the thing that blows my mind. If I'm talking to a lady, and we're getting along well, and I ask for her phone number, or to see her again, and she tells me 'no', I assume there is a reason for that 'no'. Maybe I can't figure that reason out, but I sure as hell don't sit there going, 'I bet she's under a spell where she has to meet a 'no' quota every day, and if I make her say it ten more times, she'll be free to say 'yes'!'

Seriously ladies, there are like, millions of you. No offense, but, if I talk to you, and one of you tells me no, I will just go talk to other ladies. Every dude who gets his boxers in a bunch because this particular girl told him 'no' needs to get his priorities straight. This isn't a romantic comedy or an action movie where you're the hero. You don't win a babe by existing. Go home.

I agree with you, which is why I thought it was great that you pointed out education because there are definitely a lot of misconceptions about rapists, victims, and this subject in general. Issues such as victim blaming, the notion that woman can only be raped through penile penetration of the vagina, that marital rape doesn't happen, or other things you pointed out are just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree, but also... how tall are you? None of the women in my family have trouble with that either, and I don't know if it's because we all had great upbringings or because we're all taller than the average man. I'm 5'10" and apparently, it makes me intimidating.

But yeah, it's illegal for him to lift your number from the form without permission. At least, it would be here...

It is not a joke. Sorry, but I'd say "no" to something and want him to insist/ obtain it somehow different, simply because I was taught that "a proper girl would never say yes". For example, I believe a kiss should be stolen, not asked for. If I'd get asked, I'd say "no" because this is how I was taught. Otherwise, I won't be seen by him as respectable.

In this case, body signals are also important. If he asks for a kiss, I'd say no, but I'd remain close to him, smiling at him... waiting to be kissed. If he draws near slowly, if I want to be kissed I won't step back. If I don't want to, I will step back, cease smiling, and avoid eye contact.

If he asks for a phone number... I am not sure if I would say no (if not meaning it). I assume I won't. But if he learns the number from my colleague or from a directory, and I want to talk to him, I will be glad he did it.

Of course, it doesn't get further. If I said NO to something sexual, it remains no, it doesn't mean "try harder".

Actually, I am short. Like: short short. I am just under 1.60m. I am very unthreatening-looking. Like I said, it must just be that I am so ugly, men don't even want to bother. ... or I am just oblivious to it.

(it is always fun to suddenly turn on my angry-mode though, in shops. Because people don't expect me to get angry. I still cherish the memory of mildly cussing out two kids, one of whom thought it would be 'fun' to throw a little stool at his brother. They had been annoying for a while, but I trust parents to parent, right? Until one of them nearly injured the younger one and still the parent didnt bother. Now, most people would be scared the parents would start laying into you. But in my case, I scared both the kids and the parents, so that they left the store with a blush of shame. ... so maybe I can be intimidating, if I want to?)

Lady, you could be the Virgin Mary and we could find some way to not respect you, and here's why: respect is a choice. It is a choice to lay aside certain types of power-grubbing and unpleasant behavior in order to make the other person feel like an equal. Ah, equal -- it is like part of that word 'equality', the one that causes some people to freak out.

Your worth has nothing to do with whether you are "hard to get". You are worthy just the way you are. Conversely, it's not going to be your dream guy that chooses to stalk you -- that is what looking up your number after a 'no' would be. Your dream guy is the guy who treats you with respect right away, no matter what you tell him. That's the problem with a lot of the swill that's peddled as romance: it is controlling, macho, threatening, and sometimes downright abusive behavior, and it is all under the guise of "But a Real Man would! And deep down The Woman loves him, she just Doesn't Understand That Yet."

Personally, I find an exchange of, "Hey, can I kiss you?" "Yesplz!" to be far more sexy than asking for a kiss and being shot down, even if the person is really just being coy.

I have my own no means try harder story. I can't count how many times I said no, but I was weak and let myself be pushed every step of the way. And the next day i got the 'i don't want to see you again' talk.

I felt completely at fault. It hardened me though and I resolved NEVER to let that happen again. I pushed it away and put it behind me fairly quickly. But years later a theropist told me that it was rape. I hadn't ever thought of it that way, but basically, when I said no, he should have never pushed, even though I eventually stopped resisting I never said yes either.

What did I learn? When someone doesn't respect your wishes, walk away.

(and yes, I purposely kept this vague, but if someone needs to talk about these things more privately I can)


1/4 women are raped. How many are pushed into something they *don't want because they don't have the confidence or self image to stand behind their 'no'?

Yeah .

And honestly the idea that a girl is in any way more respectable or worth more because she pretends not to want someone or lies -- because yes, body saying one thing but mouth saying something else is lying -- is incredibly outdated and leads to slut-shaming on the one side and these dubious consent stories on the other because how would a guy know the difference?!

But yeah I agree with Rhi, the asking is hot.
I have a sort of post-asking story where I spent a weekend at a someone's house and we got along really well but were shy or careful and after being up all night talking when we each went into a different room to sleep, he gave me a tiny kiss on the lips, then vanished to brush his teeth and when he came back he asked really carefully: "I just kissed you. Was that... okay?"
And I had wanted him to kiss me for hours and the tiny kiss had made me all tingly but it was that question that made me fall for him so hard. I said yes, smiled, we hugged and each went to their own bed. It was sweet.

Awweee, These kissy stories are making me all squishy inside XD

An exchange I had with a guy I was on a first date with
Guy: "I have a question to ask you."
Me: "Okay."
Guy: "I want to kiss you"
Me: nervous b/c guy is omg cute and i liiiiike him blurts out "That's not a question, but you can."

The downside to being a smartass XD XD XD