The "no means try harder" idea

I've been thinking about the nature of consent a lot lately and maybe it really is having been focussed on it for a while that made it stand out to me, but I have noticed a huge amount of this kind of idea both in the media and in the men who approach me:

"If a woman says no, she means yes but....
1. she wants you to try harder (the tease version)
2. she doesn't want to look easy (the slut-shaming version)
3. she wants to be hunted (the prey version)."

The other day the pizza delivery guy asked me if he could call me privately sometime. He seemed nice and polite and I told him nicely and politely that I was flattered but not interested. A few nights later I get a text from a number I didn't recognize, a somewhat illiterate jumble of words to the effect that somebody couldn't stop thinking about me. I didn't reply.
A few more days later, someone calls me and asks me why I didn't reply to their text (all entitled as though some anonymous texter has the right to demand a reply) - I got him to tell me that he was said delivery guy and I hung up. Seriously? He took my number from the order sheet even though I told him not to? And what could I possibly have done in the minute he spent in front of my door handing me a caprese salad that made it so he "couldn't stop thinking about me"?

When is a no a no? Why is it that the media keeps telling women this bullshit about how we have to say no so-and-so many times? That makes everything so damn confusing for everybody.
And what is it with this attitude that women are somehow the enemy - the thing that stands between a man and getting sex? It's so weird and warped and what's up with that, basically?

So yeah - how do you signal an actual no and how do you, men, figure what a real no is and what a "fake" one is?

That's seriously odd and creepy. I don't know how it is where you are, but could you report him to his work for taking your number without permission like that?

My best friend - basically a sister to me - constantly gets men touching or kissing her, even when she either said "no" or physically displayed that the feelings were not reciprocated. I cannot compare to that but I had an issue this past school year where I was sexually harassed and stalked (while I was both sober and intoxicated) by a girl who couldn't take my "no, I'm not interested in a relationship with you" which I said clearly on several occasions.

So from there, I cannot understand why people cannot respect other's boundaries or why it is difficult for people to understand "no" because for me, I take no as a definite no (no other possibilities or second chances, if that makes sense). It's not amber, it's a stop sign, a red light that you don't cross at all. Even if they do not explicitly say "no", women (and men) can still say it through their body language, behaviour, tentative response, etc. In which case, I'll stop.

idk when I say no, I mean it. Body language says a lot, though. Not to say that yours was like 'no but please stalk me god I want you on my body' but when you look uncomfortable, a no is a definite no.

I think that's super difficult though because just because someone asks me out, that doesn't usually make me uncomfortable (unless they seem super creepy from the get go lol). Generally I think it's really difficult to ask someone out and I don't want to make them feel even worse just because I'm not in a place where I am desiring a date.
I don't want to be needlessly cruel or icked out and I don't want to start seeing men as potential stalkers... and this is where everything gets even more complicated lol.

I also think women are sort of told by society that we shouldn't say no. That unless we are in a committed relationship, we should do what we can do get guys or be available, basically. And I actually need to be in a pretty good and awake and strong mood to be able to say "no" at all. When caught unawares, I get totally flustered and babble something about having a boyfriend or no phone (which is CLEARLY me being uncomfortable) but that tends to make them move in even more.


Edited to add for @Lily Lilac and @Jareth - I know I could report him and get him fired. But really I wasn't THAT bothered. It is more that this is almost normal. Just an example in a string of vague transgressions I am almost considering normal now... and then wake up and want to shake myself because it's not.
I will report him if he ever uses my number again, but for now, yeah I don't consider it terrible enough, really.

When I say no, I mean no. Absolutely. No ifs, ands, of buts about it.

And too often I've had people disrespect my "no". :\

The problem is that women have been conditioned to be polite--both because of stupid society, and because, well...often it's a defense mechanism because you don't want to piss off the person who could hurt you, so you try to soften the blow. It's horrible. Like, for example, I had my ass groped by a stranger and my response wasn't "OMFG YOU ASSHOLE" like I wish it could have been--instead it was nervously laughing it off, saying "um, don't do that..." and then reporting the asshole to staff later. (And only because my ex urged me too--I was freaked out but too ashamed to do it on my own, yay classic conditioning.)

I wish my response could be different. I wish it could be stronger. But I tend to freeze up, laugh nervously, and deflect. And lemme tell ya, saying I already have a girlfriend does nothing.

I've also had people follow me around or try to pressure me into giving them their number or basically outright telling me I was playing coy. I've had an ex friend send me sexually harassing messages even when I told him to stop, because he knew I really wanted it but was too shy to say so.

Just because I laugh it off (because I'm nervous) doesn't mean "YES PLEASE IGNORE MY NO". Which is why an enthusiastic yes and double-checking to make sure should be sought instead of just assuming that nervous (or, perhaps it's perceived as shy or coy) "no" actually means "yes".

Because it's better to check and keep flippin' checking than to just make that assumption and seriously damage someone--unless you've already discussed this stuff in-depth and have safe-words in place.

The thing is, signals lie. You may PERCEIVE a "signal" a certain way, but it may not be the truth.

Also, a lack of "no" isn't a "yes", either.

This just reminded of a Louis CK bit

That aside, I know that romantic movies tend to promote the idea of 'pursuit.' That if a girl says no to you that you just have to try harder and get her to like you. Off the top of my head, 10 Things I Hate About You comes to mind. It's a horrid moral in the first place and the teen movie while not as offensive still purports that idea of pursuit. In the movie, it's all great and fine because she eventually falls in love with him, but she didn't like him at all like Mr. Pizzman?

I was raised in an environment where no means no with no and's if's or but's. But you're right, that's not displayed in the media. It's reserved for self-righteous PSA announcements that no one is really listening to anyway. The question is how do we change that culture? Beyond doing the right thing and being vocal about it I don't know.

I am very sympathetic toward women in this regard. I know we joke about how easy it must be to have men flocking around you, but it must get scary with a bunch of ape men eyeing you up like a piece of meat. Especially in bars where they're getting drunk and losing all those inhibitions that society's tried to drill into them.

I know this isn't about Rape Culture exactly, but there was an article in the New York Times which essentially blamed an 11 year old girl for her gang rape. They later retracted the article after an angry out pour, but it shows that even a higher institution like the NYT is subject to these socially retarded ideas.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandview...ped;_new_york_times_article_blames_the_victim

The worst part is that these ideas are so instilled in society that many women think that it's okay. It's exactly like @Rhi-Rhi said. Women need to be able to be vocal about what they want. The states are so reserved sexually and it's an anomaly for a woman to flat out state what she wants. A friend of mine actually hit on my girlfriend because she was nice to him. I tell my female friends to be polite once, but if he persists to get rude. Get mean. Make sure he knows you mean business and aren't playing coy. The polite guys figure it out the first time, the assholes are the ones who keep it up.

Well, ending rape culture begins with men, honestly. :\ Men need to be better educated about consent and what consent actually is, and women need to be educated about that, too.

But the problem is that the issue is rooted in misogyny. We can't often "get mean" because it may not be safe for us to do, and if we already feel threatened, the last thing we want to do is escalate it. It's a self-preservation thing. And women have no way of knowing who's gonna back off and who's gonna get aggressive.

Women can take all the precautions in the world, but in the end, stopping rape rests on mens' shoulders and the responsibility is theirs. Short of staying in our homes and never having a social life ever, we can't prevent ourselves from getting raped. (And even if we become a shut-in, most rapes are committed by people the woman knows.)

Sadly, all I have to offer is an example of no not meaning no:

A friend of mine (and I use the term loosely) had been dating her boyfriend for a little over two years. When Mr Bear and I got engaged, it made her 'realize' that her man wasn't going anywhere with his life or their relationship and she needed to move on. So she broke up with him and told him why.

The next day, he showed up with a ring and proposed. She said no. He left.

They didn't see each other again until a few weeks later when they had to do the inevitable exchange of crap. On top of returning his Frankie Says Relax tshirt, she also asked him why he hadn't called her since, or tried to win her back.

His answer was because she'd said no and he was respecting that. To which she replied with "but I wanted you to try."

When she told me that, I asked her if he punched her. I would have.

Gyaaah. That stuff drives me insane.

If you say no when you meant yes, it's your fault they backed off and left you alone--because they are doing the right thing by respecting your no.

I've had people do that to me, too, but I always respect their no. If they really meant yes, oh well. They should have said yes. I'd rather not take chances. :\

I am ashamed to admit I've never once been in a position where I had to tell someone either 'no' or 'get off me you fool', besides that one time someone fell asleep on me mid-flight.

But yeah. Wow.

I usually give them a reason. No, I shouldn't have to and blah blah blah, but it takes all of five seconds to say, "Thanks, sweetheart, but you can't touch what I got at home." or "Thanks for the drink offer, but alcohol would harm my developing fetus. D:"

Ladies: to me, no means no. Unless I'm absolutely sure that I'm picking up that "I'm saying no but I really mean yes" kind of flirting... Yeah... for me, it's always been no means no. Then again, I don't have the need to dominate women, and I'm confident and secure with myself. *shrug*

I think in both directions, our ideas around the word "no" are messed up.

No should mean no, first time and last time. But what people seem to forget is that women have the ability to channel sexist ideas and implement them passively - in saying no and expecting a chase, in buying into a chivalrous, warped idea of what romance is, of being as denigrating of men who aren't 'properly masculine' as men can be. And when men go through that, they're suffering from similar gender role-induced shit to what women do. I know for a lot of men it becomes easy to respond "well women treat me badly or are ambiguous", etc. etc., but they're influenced by exactly the same things which make men sexist.

I think in this case, the safest and best thing is to always assume that no means no, even if you frustrate some girl's sexist idea of romance. You're listening, you're responding in a decent way, in a way that I would laud except that I feel it should be standard. It's easy to get frustrated by labyrinthine, stupid romantic expectations from people, but tbh I think they all come from the same place - messed up ideas of what romance should be - and all deserve to be frustrated.

I actually think this is part of where a lot of it comes from -- the idea that women enjoy that attention, that it is flattering somehow.
And sure, it is at first, right up the point where the no is ignored (and unfortunately often quite a lot earlier) and then it all comes crashing back that this is ridiculous and they aren't actually interested in me as a person but in getting past me as a person and to the sex and how I really don't know how far they will go to get there.

I'm not gorgeous, I don't get that worst kind of flocking, but then the men that do chat me up always have this air about them as though they are doing me a favour. As though I should be grateful they are paying me attention and it has happened before that when I did manage a strong no the: "You're too effing fat anyway," or something to similar effect was tossed after.
I just don't get this.

It's because they can't handle the idea that not every woman in the world is just DYING to jump into bed with them. They're arrogant and entitled; they believe they SHOULD have sexual access to any woman they deign to grace with their attention and that if she rejects them, well, clearly the fault lies with HER. Because why else would someone dare reject their glorious, golden penis? =__=

To be very very honest, a random delivery guy lifting your phonenumber from your order form is creepy at the very least. I dont think it has anything to do with saying yes or no (seriously, what person would say yes instantly to someone asking a question like that?), I think it has to do with a seriously creepy person who needs to be reported to his boss. Right now.

And no. I have never had any trouble saying no and making it mean no. I must be very very ugly. Lucky for me, I still managed to latch on to a toyboy, so it all worked out well for me. I also never get catcalls, or whistled at in the streets (except for that one 12 year old, who was then chastised by his older brother, without any input from me). Again, maybe I am just very very ugly and that helps.

I do feel for women who have to go through the bad behaviour of some men (and mind you, I have also seen plenty of women harrass men on the streets or at work). For me, it just says more about the harrassers than the harrassee. Lack of good upbringing, whiff of utter desperation more than thinking themselves god's gift to women,; I just find it all rather sad.

And to top it off, I also don't think that women have to change their appearance or behaviour to avoid such stupid behaviour in men (or other women). I don't know where the idea comes from that women invite such behaviour, or why some people think that certain outfits, or looking a person in the eye, invites any sort of unwanted attention and questions. Or why no seems to mean yes to some people. Maybe they've just watched too many pr0n films with pizza delivery boys gettin' some when they deliver food. I dunno. I have no experience with it, as I said.