Terms of Address for Adults - "Girls?"

I was having a discussion with some fellow martial artist friends of mine about how we talk to and about one another in that martial arts training context. That context happens to be a university setting. 80% of the participants are college students from 18+ and then the rest are adult community members (me) and university faculty.

I have noted how most of the time the women are called 'girls'. "Girls over here, please". "Even girls can do this throw". "Girls, can you demonstrate that again?" "We love having more girls join the club." "Martial arts girls kick ass!"

The men in the club are never called boys. Only 'guys' or 'men'.

I find this to be quite strange, especially considering the formal atmosphere we usually strike. We are sirs and ma'ams, and we actively practice courtesy and respect as vital parts of our practice. I would prefer we addressed each other as men and women, because we are all adults in a respectful, professional setting. (Strangely, I rarely even hear us called 'ladies', which is better than 'girls' but problematic in its own way.)

I feel that in calling the adult women (and we are all adults) 'girls' we are not being treated with respect, and not equally to the men who are never called boys. I think it's subtle, certainly, and I think that it's more a symptom of bad habits than an individual wishing to remove the power and infantalize capable female athletes. I also think that in some cases, our members may still be transitioning into adults and might not yet feel like adults being only 18 or 19. But we learn many new habits when we join martial arts including calling each other sir and ma'am.

I sometimes worry (and have at times actively observed) that by treating women like 'girls' we are not giving each other the chance to excel and meet a high standard. That by calling us girls, it somehow perpetuates the stereotype that we need to be 'empowered' by someone else, that our major hurdle will be to not be 'too nice', and that people will need to 'go easy' on us.

What has your experience been? I suppose this topic could also easily apply to any other sport, or the workplace.

Curious to how other adult women feel about being called girl in different contexts. (For example, in an informal setting, I would be okay being called 'girl' by an older woman. But I would never be alright being referred to as a girl by a person of any gender of any age in the workplace. I am more comfortable being called girls if the men are being called boys, but it's not my favorite.)

Thanks! Curious to hear others' thoughts. Don't make me regret this.

EDIT: Please do not misinterpret this thread as me asking for advice, or to have a discussion about what one should do when faced with this situation. Thanks for caring, I guess, but I don't need your help. Rather, this thread is about language and its influence. Thanks!

I have to admit, I am not a native speaker so my feeling of language is not really the same but we have a similar thing in German too.

I do find it problematic if routinely, in a mixed group the women are referred to as girls and the guys as men.

But I actually haven't seen that a lot. Having gone through a lot of university schooling, I find students to be a very awkward thing because we stay oddly stunted in many ways and I never felt like I had the right to call myself a woman, like that is something I have to earn. I have to be a grown up and actually have real responsibilities etc. Same goes for men, which is why I kind of never call guys under 30 "men" either. I actually find it easier to call women of that age range "women" and now that I am out of university, the only people who still call us "girls" are other women -- like "lets go out, just us girls" and I find that a little silly.
Just gonna be blunt here - I won't call a 22-year-old college student a woman either, but as I said, a 22-year-old guy is definitely not a man.

I could care less if I'm called a girl, a woman, a lady, a gal, a dame, or anything else. They're all interchangeable to me and I've got better things to worry about. Even if I did, semantic change will take care of itself after awhile.

But I fail to see how being called girl in a dojo prevents anyone from applying themselves to the fullest degree to learn the art. If it were me, I'd refer to everyone by their grade or something, or just by name.

In my area, the term boy floats around a lot. You'll hear a lot of "_____ and his boys." in regards to the close friends in a male's social circle.

Very glad to hear others' perspectives and their own feelings about how they are named. Especially curious as to how this changes (or doesn't) depending on context.

@Lee, to answer your question: Our language both reflects and directs how we think and behave. This effect differs in degress and context, and so also does our awareness of language's power differ. It's not about direct causality - that it's a magic word that disables me, or anything. However, it does/could indicate lowered expectations. Girls are younger than women. Girls are more immature them women. Girls are less autonomous, less powerful, less assertive. I label this person as a girl not a women. Even if that is not the literal message going through someone's head, or the literal message someone receives, it contributes to a culture where the female members are presented as children and the males are presented as adults.

When women are not seen as equal athletes (seen as children) the expectations of them will be lowered. And time has shown us that lowered expectations is a strong contributor to lowered performance. If I am a developing martial artist, I rely on those around me to teach me. Correct me. Guide me to the next level. If my instructor or fellow martial arts believe me to be less than capable than my peers, they may not work with me in the same way, no matter what I believe about myself. If I am an accomplished martial artist, then those who might learn from me may not give my contributions fair consideration, or they may see my accomplishment (say of a black belt) as having less meaning than a man's. (The standards are lower for women, so that belt was easier to earn.)

Our words do have power. As a lover of language and communication and connection, a fuller understanding of words and their use brings me great satisfaction and fascination, especially in the ways it interacts with our lives and important social issues.

Please don't dismiss my discussion by indicating you have better things to worry about. It can be a derailing tactic, even if you didn't mean it that way.

We actually talked a bit about this in my Language and Gender course last semester, which was pretty interesting. I'm 20 years old and female, and I feel like I'm in that awkward stage between calling other females my age "girls" and "women." Recently I've started to switch over more to calling them "women" but I think my usage is probably still around 50-50.

I generally call males my age "guys" because for me, it's somewhere between "boys" and "men." I kind of wish that we had a similar term for women.

For "men" and "women" though, I generally consider the terms to mean that those people are mature adults. "Girls" seems like it's more socially acceptable between females and their female friends throughout their lives (like "Oh hey, I'm going out with the girls tonight"). You don't usually see males doing the same thing with "boys."

Edit: And I absolutely with @sellaphix. Language absolutely impacts how we think about the world around us. Think about words that technically have the same meaning, but a vastly different connotation (a controversial one would be "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice").

Simple answer, and you and pretty much everyone else will hate it: stop contributing to the culture of females being inferior by doing. Feel that the standards for women martial artists keep females down? Aim for the male's standards in regards to training and competing as your typical regiment. That just gives you the opportunity to defy expectations; honestly, being told I can't do something makes me work that much to do it and give them a big fuck you for underestimating me.

So, now, I ask you, does the dojo staff actually treat you different as a female competitor, not guiding towards your fullest potential as an athlete and a martial artist? If not, I'm not sure what the issue with is, if so, find a new dojo.

Difference in opinion =/= dismissal. It doesn't bother me, personally, which is the question you asked. If it bothers you, that's on you.

I like women/gals better, but I'm guilty of saying girls too.

Thanks, @Lee. But please stay on topic. This thread is a discussion about how women feel about being called 'girl' in different types of context, and how they feel it affects them (or doesn't).

I did not solicit advice about how to behave in order to combat a potentially sexist environment, how to select the communities I choose to be involved with, or how to be develop as a good martial artist.

Instead, I'd like this debate thread to focus on the questions posed in the original post.

(EDIT: I see what you mean now about the 'better things to worry about' comment. Sorry 'bout that.)

I know you are asking adult women only, but I just found your post really interesting because I've never thought about; nor, encountered it myself, as far as I know. From my experience, young adults are either referred to as 'young men' and 'young women' or informally as 'boys' and 'girls' or 'lad' and 'lass'.

Otherwise, they're 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' or 'men' and 'women'. ('Sir' and 'ma'am', etc, depends on age and/or situation, etc)

To me, the words 'boy' and 'girl' refer to children or adolescences, so someone who is legally an adult is no longer a 'girl' or 'boy'. But it can be used informally, if they are still young. 'Guy', on the other hand, is not the equivalent to 'man', rather it is more like 'fellow' (or 'bloke' or 'chap') and can be used as gender-neutral (such as "haha, oh, you guys").

I wouldn't call an adult woman or a women who is older than me a 'girl' at all, though; unless, she was close within my age group (university age) but I call males in my age group 'boys', too.

I don't think I've ever heard "men and girls" but I do agree with you that there's something embedded in the language there, that even I am not comfortable with.

Bolded the part I agreed with:

Oh, that's funny. In the U.S. we don't widely hear lad and lass at all, however I remember it from my semester in Lancashire. I also use guys gender neutrally, but only in references to groups of people. You guys. Not, she's a nice guy.

People say gal is the analog of guy, but it comes off sounding very old-fashioned or This is Your Bathroom At An Old West Themed Restaurant.

Advice was a poor choice of words.

Take 'advice' and change it to "This doesn't bother me because..."

Yeah I feel like it's important to remember that we're all coming from different parts of the world, so obviously it's hard to compare our experiences, but it's certainly more interesting I'm from the Mid-Atlantic region of the US, for example, so I'm sure that what I've said doesn't apply to many others of you.

i think it's pretty clear that sellaphix was in fact referring to this comment of yours:

it is laughably insulting to say that it is women's fault that people treat them badly, which is precisely what you just said. that people look down on them because they're not trying hard enough.

if you don't think that's why people look down on them, then it is ridiculous to propose that that's the solution.

to address the actual thread!

there is a huge cultural trend in promoting youth and femaleness as desirably connected traits. i would challenge people to think about why they dislike using the word 'women' - i would posit that we all have internalized negative connotations of age, and therefore decay, unattractiveness, lower-quality goods, etc, with the term. older women are devalued in all kinds of ways. conversely, we associate girlhood with youth, vitality, freshness, and desirability. so yeah, we're more inclined to call people 'girls' and think of it as a preferable term.

in case it wasn't obvious, yes, i think it's indicative of pernicious misogyny.

Honestly, saying that females are "women" rather than "girls" makes me feel more empowered. I don't really associate it with being old and not pretty anymore, and I actually consider women who label themselves as "women" rather than "girls" to be more confident in themselves. I don't know about the rest of you all, but that's my view on it.

I think it's a little incorrect to say that men are not called boys, tho not to the extent that women are called girls. The examples below I've heard used for men of all ages:

Boys will be boys.
Boys and their toys.
Boy's night out.
One of the boys.

I still remember a photo shoot I was on for Glass Menagerie back in. . .1990, I believe. Might've been 1991, not the point. Anyway, the actors playing Laura and Amanda were posing on the "fire escape" and the photographer said to them "Okay, cheat your faces up slightly and look over at me, girls." The woman playing Amanda (who was most likely in her 50s somewhere) said (totally in character): "Why I-I haven't been called a 'girl' since . . . why it's since I got my PhD, that's when it was." Everyone in the room fell out laughing. I hadn't even thought about this topic until then, but I realized in that moment (even though I was 15 or 16 at the time; yes, I'm old. Shut up ) that she was objecting strenuously to his patronizing comment. I've been very careful about using that term for women ever since. And yes, I agree 100% that it is wrong to call women who are over 18 "girls." I generally use "ladies" if I'm addressing them, but I'll talk about someone as a woman, ie: "Ladies, please come over here," or "You're a smart woman; I know you'll make a good decision."

Language does absolutely have power.

But it only has as much power as you yourself let it have.

Speaking as a twenty year old female, the only time I'd feel slightly put out by being called "girl" is if I was being called this by an absolute stranger. If somebody who didn't know me in the least turned around and called me a "girl" then I may or may not be just slightly put out because hey, you don't know me and I'm definitely not young enough to be a girl.

Of course, on the other hand, I am totally fine with it if it's coming from somebody I know, like friend or family.

Example: my aunt just got a full time job. My grandmother came over to my house and invited me to a "girls' night out" tonight in celebration. That's not just my grandmother referring to me as a girl either. That's her referring to herself, my aunt and me as "girls". And I see nothing wrong with this, because it isn't being used as an indication of age nor is it being used with any kind of formality.

And you know, by that same token, I will often refer to men as "guys" and sometimes "boys" on the provision that I know them, and that we are friends at the very least. It's informal. I'm not saying it to be sexist, I'm not saying it to make them feel small or belittle them or insinuate they have small genitals or whatever the hell that some other man may associate with the name. It's just an informal term that I'm using amongst people I know.

I think, to me, this is one of those subjective cases where this is only going to bother you if you choose to let it bother you. In particular, language only has as much power as you personally give it. Society generally tries to imprint on everybody what language is acceptable and what isn't, but whether or not certain terms offend you or don't offend you is almost completely based on your experiences and your opinion.

So to me, what you described isn't in the least bit sexist. No, maybe people at a club wouldn't know me super well, but they still know me and see me regularly. They aren't calling me "girl" to make me feel inferior. It's just a generic informal term grouping together a bunch of women, within which there are some varying ages. I see nothing wrong with this.

I also have to agree with Lee to an extent, in that if being called a "girl" genuinely bothers you, you need to actively tell people. If somebody calls you "girl" and you are not comfortable with this term, approach them privately and explain why it bothers you, and ask if perhaps they could refer to you differently. You don't have to mean about it either; they themselves probably didn't think they were making anybody feel uncomfortable or didn't realise that they made some people think they were being sexist.

But you have to make them aware, and that responsibility to make people aware is up to you and you alone. If you decide that being called a "girl" makes you feel that people are being sexist and trying to make you inferior, but you never ever bring it up and then you go around questioning "Oh why are all these fascist pigs being so sexist?!" then I'm afraid the fault lies with you. (Not pointing specific fingers at people in this actual thread, mind you, but just a generic sort of example. If you don't like it? Tell people.)