Ugh. I'm currently in the process of making my own site and glad for it. Lately I'm really ticked off at a lot of the role playing. Firstly, PLAY-BYs. I'm getting sick of trying to find them, especially males. I like having decent pics, because at least then I can make graphics (i do like that), but I can never find one that fits/I don't hate/isn't horrendously overused or cheesy. But it's just stupid. I like making my characters look however I want. I don;t know, all the celebrities are too perfect looking anyway.

The second thing is stupid long detailed apps. First you need to post a picture, sometimes in a set size, a stupid size often, which proves difficult when my graphics program is currently not in action. And then, even with the picture, you describe their features, body, height, weight blah blah. Then another two paragraphs repeating that! Then all these stupid little details in their superlong requirement for personality. Strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes, overall personality!
-head implodes-

I just want to role play! I don't want to spend my whole night filling in the damn application! I don't even know my character that well yet, and it just kills my muse.
Bare bones applications are the best. Just the basics. That's what I'm doing on my new site, and otherwise just make it optional for all that other stuff, like their likes and dislikes. I think it's more fun that way, character development afterwards. I know at our old site we had great fun filling in character surveys =P

On good news: I can read this ten times better with my new glasses. WIN xD

I prefer to write a more detailed application, but I hear you on the play-bys. I usually have my character idea in my head well before I go to write it out... trying to find the celebrity that suits the character 'just so' isn't easy, and I am horrendously picky in what I will and won't accept. Near enough isn't good enough.

So having to choose a PB before the application can be accepted upsets me. Cause it's a major hurdle in getting me into a board, if it's mandatory... it'll take faaaaaar longer for me to join! Sometimes the estimated time between itch to play, and character acceptance is too long to be worth my continued interest in the board... and off I go. Somewhere else. XD

Yep, so this is why I have almost no application process. And PBs are not mandatory.

*sticks head back into homework*

I'm kind of torn, personally. For me, I have to have a proper playby, because I like to see what characters look like as humans, and not little anime cartoons or whatever else. I mean, if it's an anime/manga roleplay then it makes sense to use them, but I personally prefer real people. I do agree, however, that it can be difficult finding the perfect one, I usually think that you don't really have to go for perfect, just very good. It doesn't really matter what your playby looks like anyway, as long as they have the basics right ((hair colour and stuff)) because everyone imagines them differently in their head anyway.

As for applications, these do annoy me too, one of the least fun bits about rping.. But it can give you a really good view of your character, and prove that you can write them. I think applications are essential for canon characters, because you don't want someone joining up as Dumbledore/Frodo/Piper Halliwell/Phil Mitchell and then them being totally illiterate, because they are important characters, you know? When it comes to self made characters, however, I don't really see the point in them, because, as Mousie said, you're often making a character from scratch when you join, and probably need to roleplay with them a bit before knowing their personality. And an original character is whatever you want to make it anyway, so it wouldn't really matter if you change them about a bit as they evolve, because there's no canon to follow.

I'm definitely with you on the apps. I really don't see the point of having to list all the hair, height, and weight, as well as posting a picture, and then just repeating it. People can LOOK at the pic! I don't mind having to fill out clothing style, though - sometimes my PB wears clothes that my character wouldn't be caught dead in (Hanna Beth is a good example).
However, when you're applying for a canon it's naturally a good idea to see how literate the person is to make sure they're playing a character well.

But PBs? ECH. Every time I start using a good one (my current fave is Diva Atlanta) everyone else pounces on it by the time I start looking at new sites. It's annoying. I will NEVER use any celebrity faces - just because nearly EVERYONE uses them. It's what makes forum finding so monotonous. x.x

I have the same exact problem! Long detailed applications are hard to fill out. I've tried it, and found that it's not worth it. I also like basic applications and bare bones applications, they are easier for me. It makes more sense to develop the character afterwards, because like in books and movies we get to know characters not by their profile, but how they interact with others. It's also more fun for me too to develop my characters afterwards.

I personally like filling out applications, but that's because I like filling out just about anything (not even joking, I've already filled out my application for an internship I'm going to do...in four years. Just because I'm excited and I like filling things out). But I think it's incredibly dumb when you have:

Etc. Usually on my sites, I'll either have "eye color: hair color:" etc, and then a short description for the purpose of adding anything extra they need to put, or just the different things broken up.

And am I the only one who has a general idea (eye color/hair color) for a character's appearance, then finds a PB who has those features?

I love my bare bones applications, it allows me and my members to flesh out the characters in the roleplaying process. It feels more natural, like they come to life.

As for play-bys, personally I only use one if I find one that matches in demeanour enough to properly convey my character. I'd never make them mandatory, though, and I find the growing use of the same play-bys with pre-made personalities and relationships rather dull and monotonous....

I like playbys, but I don't want to pick a playby, post a picture of them, then write out how they look anyway. Basic prompts I understand. Establish eye and hair color, height, etc, with a short answer, and then another prompt for anything else that may be important. But I don't want to write paragraphs on it. Honestly, I've always found descriptions of what a character looks like to be tedious, often even in posts... I establish bits and pieces here and there so the other player knows what I'm currently wearing/whatever, but I hate going on and on about it. >_>

But, uhm... I like long applications where I have to know my character to finish them. But I understand some people don't, it's really just a different way of playing. No one way is better than the other, in my opinion.

I use play-bys on my game and the app (which I don't think is especially long) includes a description category. That's for all the stuff you can't tell from a picture, though. Accent, scars/tattoos, preferred dress, way of moving, favorite perfume or cologne (if they have one), etc.

I haven't had much trouble with other people using the same pb, probably because I tend to play older characters and pick older pbs. I had Sean Bean all to myself for awhile and I've found absolutely nobody else using William Fichtner.

Like Mousie, I prefer filling out proper applications. It kinda makes me think the site means business. The applications are often a way for the staff to see that you know your stuff. It shows you know how to write and that you know your character, which means you will be able to stick in character better while posting. People in real life do change their minds and react in unexpected way but they do also carry a basic form of personality which affects on even their unpredictability. Anyways, the applications tend to be longer if the site requires longer posts and I understand why very well. I too require details and find it a good way to keep some unwanted types away...most of the time. Long-ish apps show that at least people bother to do a little something to join the board.

Fleshing out your characters in roleplays might be tricky because not everyone reads every thread on the board. Especially when they are joining after the board has been rolling for a while. It's hard to track a character just to find out stuff about them.
Sure you could then post some sort of plottage place for your character listing the threads they were in, in a linear order for people to be able to follow you but it is still a lot to read when people could have just simply checked your application...
Or are you planning on updating your character profile along the way? That could get messy easily...sure it's doable but I still see filling out a proper app as a better option with less trouble.

Only thing that ever bothers me at long applications is if people ask over two paragraphs on the appearance even though you have posted a picture of your character. It seems rather unnecessary but I've written long descriptions so if I really want to join the board...it won't bother me too much.
Now what elphie described there...

now that RP would have to be a good one for me to want to fill out that app...

And on the appearance I understand asking for height and body type but do you have to be so specific that you actually want me to tell exactly how heavy they are??? It causes issues and I've seen that many people have no idea on what is too thin for certain height. So they will have underweight people with issues with metabolism or they are just suffering from an eating disorder...without the player realizing it. More amusing it is when they are underweight and they describe they have some athletic features such as slight muscularity...I'm sorry but muscles tend to weigh quite a bit. With some of the weights people have listed...their characters would look pretty much skeletons...you could see their bones before muscles.

When it comes to PBs I know it can be bothersome. I myself am picky and have to look for a PB for quite a while. But always at my forums I've had in the applications that PBs are optional...but if you have one then it must be a picture of a real person...not an anime character or a drawing. I understand anime pics at anime boards but I don't see they belong anywhere else. They have no actual distinguishing features (unless you count some odd outfits, demon or angel wings that do not look anywhere near realistic, or hell kitty ears etc) and they look way too unrealistic. So as long as it's a real person I'm fine by it...though it is preferred that you know the name of the model, if not then state so and if you think the image source might help, then list it (for example, if it's from deviantart it might actually help).

I understand why some people just don't see the point in long apps, but I myself prefer doing a bit more work for my app and I like to see people do the same on my boards.

That's why I love my own games and am fearful of others. :B I don't even have an application process on my games. It's a bare-bones joining form that people can fill out as much of, or as little of, as they choose (I tried to appeal to people who like filling out n application in advance and people, like me, who develop their characters as I play them). I won't join a game if it requires an application. *shrug* I've been RPing 12 years, and I won't jump through hoops for any game. :B I'm too old for that, haha.

An application only really shows that you know how to fill out an application, anyway. It doesn't really show much more than that. And knowing my character? Shouldn't that be for the player of the actual character to decide, not staff? Although, I never know my character prior to playing them--I make them up as I go and I like it that way. The most I ever have prior to playing a character is maybe an appearance and basic theme/idea I want to explore, but that's it. And that's fun for me. The characters I have tried to develop in advance always flopped so I don't even attempt it anymore, while the ones I make up on the fly and figure out as I post them turn out to be the most deep.

Works for me! Won't work for everyone, but that's my own personal tried and true method. x3

I fill out profiles for my characters and update them as I play the character. The profile also lists all the threads my characters have been in, and the personality, history, appearance, etc. is updated as I go (yes, even appearance; sometimes they get injured, for instance). It seems better to update something like that than to just fill out an app and leave it like that, since characters do grow and change. And not fleshing out a character in threads seems odd. O_o If you RP long enough, the character is gonna change depending on their experiences.

PBs...I draw my own characters and so do other people. My games aren't anime games (that's just mah [very old *cringe*] art), but we have a lot of artists, and PBs aren't required. People can use whatever means they want to represent their characters; a rare few use models/actors which is totally fine, but most people either draw them or don't use a picture at all--they use text. :B I think images are emphasized way too much in games. They're nice and all as supplemental material, but they're obsessed over too much, methinks.

I'd also disagree that anime pics have no distinguishing features. There are a number of artists I could name off the top of my head that shoot that argument into the ground. xD A few of 'em are on my games--no angel wings or kitty ears involved.

I'm not ashamed to say I jump through hoops for a game if I like it. The admins have worked on the site and I just figure I do my part and then after that I get to posting.

It is true they are going to change but people even in real life maintain their basics. There is basic personality that doesn't change easily, they might start viewing some things differently, like love, children and maybe they will become afraid of something and get over the fear. In that sense updating the character sheet after RPing for a long time is acceptable to me but I still think there needs to be a good amount of information already set up for new players and others to see it easily. Then if they still crave for more they can go snoop around posts. And after a long time of playing, if there has happened some significant changes, then you edit the app. I just wouldn't allow members update too often, it can get pretty messy...I've seen it happen. In the case of significant changes and unnecessary ones I would give it some slack.

Any links to these anime drawings with distinguishing features? I like looking at people's art. I'm kind of curious about art since I'm an artist myself. I've always thought anime characters look alike a lot...only few things vary and it's like they were those paper dolls that people just mix and match with odd hair styles and two to three types of eyes. So I would like to see drawings that change my mind 'cause I'm kind of frustrated to see the similar styles flash by...I'm a curious person when it comes to arts, I appreciate the gifts of artists and I want to see more! =)
My brain just requires more realistic looking styles. DC and Marvel comic styles my mind can handle...occasionally even Disney style but as PBs I've never liked to see anime characters. Especially if other characters have real life PBs or something more realistic. It's just simply my preference to see more realistic images.

But all and all these are just my humble opinions that I state. I get the points people thinking otherwise make but I just don't agree.
^_^

I make an in-depth profile, and still update with changes as I go along. My characters grow too, and I write their profiles to reflect that. I mean... it's not like I make a character, and then that's it for them, no growth allowed! :lol: Events happen, people change... all that good stuff. I just like to start off with something established, instead of making everything up as I go along. That's really the only difference.

I dunno... most actual anime all looks the same too me. Minor differences, but if you took four characters, made them black and white, and put them all in non-descript clothing, they'd look basically like the same character. Not many facial changes. There are a few animes that defy this "generic look" rule, but they seem to be the minority to me.

I'm not talking manga, BTW, just anime. I know there are some wonderful manga artists (manga-kas) out there. But, as a whole, Japanese art seems to go for a certain look, or variations of it, and that tends to show up most homogenized in animes.

I'm not saying all Western artists are any better, as we certainly have a few "certain looks" we like to do over and over as well, and I know some comic artists that you could do the "back and white, non-descript clothing" thing to as well and find them lacking, but... I don't know. Japan seems to take it to another level, comparatively. Westerners seem to put more value on realism, while Japan likes its highly stylized figures. Not saying all Western art is realistic, just that it's a little more so than Japanese, more often than not.

:green:

There are many examples that are not realistic when it comes to Western Art.
Such as comic strips "Pearls Before Swine" and "Sherman's Lagoon", the painting with dogs playing poker, etc. There's more, but I can't think of any. :pink:

I'm well aware of that. I didn't mean to imply that all Western art is realistic, only that, for the most part, anime art seems very homogenized and more stylistic than a majority of Western art.

And, by the way, just because the dogs playing poker were anthropomorphosized, doesn't mean they don't look roughly "realistic". A great deal of art has some aspects of cartooning qualities to it. Actually, most does, on some level. Some artists go for straight-up realism, but a great many go for some simplified (however minorly, in some cases) medium between the two that makes them happy.

Well, in my case I can't give any really significant information before I start RPing a new character simply because my brain doesn't work that way and I have to figure them out from scratch as I go. If you looked at my joining forms for my characters, they're pathetic! I'm talking like...60 words max, and that's generally just me writing down their name, gender, age, and maybe a quick outline of their appearance so I don't forget. :B The personality and history section is hardly ever even touched because frankly, I don't know my character's background from the get-go and personality-wise I may just have a vague idea (like, for example, 'this character is religious' or 'this character is an arse' and that's it). Now, I'm just talking the joining form; in the joining forms on my game, the appearance, personality, and background sections are optional.

People don't really need to know all about my character right from the get-go to RP with them. If they want to know about my character, we can RP! 8D That's what threads are for, eh? I know I learn about people IRL as I talk to them; I don't have a handy dandy profile sheet to reference. So that's sorta how I go about RPing, as well.

Though I love filling out profiles. I spend copious amounts of time filling out profiles for my characters, playing with the formatting, making them look fancy and purty-ful...xD And my profiles get very long and detailed (2000+ words and the like). The catch to all this is that I couldn't fill out such a profile upon joining a new character--but I will go nuts with it later once I've played the character and gotten to know them.

Then I go kinda crazy with the profiles, and add to said profiles throughout the character's life. :B

Now, I'm not saying this is for everyone. If you like filling out applications, if they help you figure out your character, etc., that's a good thing! 8D Do what works, right? No method is right or wrong. All I'm doing is pointing out that it doesn't work for everyone. x3 And my reason for not liking applications.

As for examples of anime art that is distinctive, I present samples!

1. Definitely distinguishing features here. x3
2. Here too, I'd say.
3. Here too.
4. And here...
5. Here...
6. And here!

For a few quick examples. xD There's a LOT of variety in anime style art, and some anime styles are very realistic to the point of practically being realism. Look up Budgie and Heise of deviantart for some examples of that; they walk a fine line and sometimes I don't know what to classify their stuff as. xD

I don't care if drawn images and realistic images are mixed in a game at all. They're all just representations, and I know I don't actually visualize my characters as anime people--even if I draw them in an anime style. x3

The argument wasn't that anime wasn't distinctive within the form, or that different artists didn't bring their own stylistic devices. It was that anime has a certain aesthetic that by and large dominates the form.

You've got large eyes, heart-shaped faces, tiny noses. You've got eccentric costumes, often which combine streetwear with either futuristic or traditional/medieval elements. The style of anime doesn't have a lot of room for representation outside that very narrow aesthetic.

Anyway, that was completely off topic. I hate applications. They take too long to fill out when I have a character ready to wreak havoc.

I'd disagree; in fact, many of the samples I posted prove that wrong. :\ If you look at the examples I posted, a lot of them have very normal clothes (well, except for the obvious fantasy ones xP), small eyes, and proportional, distinct noses, as well as different face shapes. It doesn't have a narrow aesthetic at all. It's a very broad, broad category that reaches all genres and I can even name a number of published manga off the top of my head that defies that aesthetic completely.

What you described is simply the stereotype, but not the full reality--not by a long shot. :3 It's not all gravity defying hair, big swords, cat ears, and giant robots. A lot of it is very realistic, both artistically and story-wise. It's an extremely flexible style.

And I'll stop digressing. xD

The Japanese art style has certain specific characteristics because the Japanese are a very insular people; they use particular visual shorthands because that's relevant to their culture. The large eyes, for example, are a visual translation of something like the western ideal of the eyes being windows to the soul; the wider the eye, the broader the soul, and the more innocent and pure the character is. They also use different laws of perspective than the Western eye, which is why woodblock prints tend to look sort of stretched and slanted to a modern American viewer.

I think, however, that you're not using "homogeny" quite correctly, especially since you're implying that all anime looks the same. I could see your argument that all anime from a particular STUDIO looks the same -- for example, Sunrise will always use certain colors, CLAMP will always use certain visual shorthands, Gonzo will always have similar character designs, BONES will go certain ways... but seriously, you can't tell me that Sunrise looks like CLAMP looks like Gonzo looks like BONES. If you want to get into homogeny, why don't you discuss Disney films, or Frank Miller graphic novels, or every movie filmed by Tim Burton? This is not an anime issue, it's an artistic one.

Look, I know some people do not like watching animated stories. I know some people just don't like anime, because when they were in middle school all their friends ever talked about was dubbed Naruto or whatever. That's fine. But please, please please, please PLEASE GOD PLEASE, stop tarring an entire culture's art with the same brush. How would you like it if the only thing people ever knew about American artistic ventures were Will Ferrell movies and fart jokes?

Those of us who enjoy anime are not necessarily the same fifteen year-old girls who think that omg Bleach is so hot right now. Not all anime is childish. Enjoying anime does not make people childish. Wanting to use Spike Spiegel as a playby is, I would argue, much LESS childish than wanting to use Chad Michael Murray or Zac Efron.

... Man, maybe I should've moved this to the rant forum.

... it is in the rant forum.

Anyway, I don't like most of the artwork that shows up on forums, because people overestimate their own talent. However, since you could say the same of the writing, I shall keep mum on that issue.

Interesting fact, however:

We perceive less differences between people of races other than that of our primary caregivers while we were growing up. Yes, that's right: there's a cognitive basis to racism, and that might, by a slim margin, have something to do with the anime issue. It's not politically correct--just TRUE. People raised by white parents/caregivers will much more easily differentiate between white faces; people raised by black caregivers, black faces; and the list goes on (not sure how all the world's ethnic groups break down, but you get the idea). I'm sure some of the anime issue is a problem of simple exposure.

THAT said, I still detest artwork on forums. I like using human playbys. That's just my aesthetic. I feel drawn artwork is amateurish and often implies a genre surrounding it, like some anime--and it is a bit of a genre. Not knocking it, but I like to keep my RPs set in something close to the 'real world'.

Jetting to give a tour now--work's grand, ain't it?

Cheers.

I meant as my own rant; I also meant it as a joke. Sorry the humor was lost. I'll work on that for next time.

I'm confused by your assertion that drawn artwork is amateurish. I know you can't possibly be implying that artwork on a canvas is more amateur than photography, because that's ridiculous. Even setting aside the famous portraiture of historical eras, I'm not sure that you can really mean that people like Sarah Cloutier or Ursula Vernon or Tealin (all professional artists who started in some flavor of fandom) are less worthy of attention and consideration than a collection of screencaps from whatever is on weeknight primetime.

Is it that people genuinely haven't seen well-designed characters with their own art? Honestly? I would be so happy to point you at some you have no idea, and I'm sure that Rhi-Rhi has scores.

I would so much rather see hand-designed, character-perfect art in an icon -- no matter how amateur -- than another tired, TIRED set of desperately inappropriate choices (Clive Owen for a 23 year-old? Really? Really?) based solely on who's in what hot hot hot new media property.

I didn't say all hand-drawn art was amateurish (OBVIOUSLY). Straw-man arguments about here--not everyone picks Clive Owen for a 23-year-old, either.

Me, I happen to enjoy the 'I'm casting a movie' vibe that actor playbys give you. I also don't need playby pictures at all; I don't care as much about the visuals as about the writing.

But a lot of the art that appears in people's forums is poorly-drawn, terribly-proportioned, and generally icky to look at. There's only so much you can mess up a photograph--not that my aesthetics haven't been horribly offended by those, either.

I'm not such a huge fan of the emphasis on visual representations at all, but the pictures that look like someone's three-year-old nephew drew them in crayon are up there on my list of annoyances. THOSE are the amateurish pictures I'm talking about.

However, as the saying goes, de gustibus non disputandum est: you can't argue with taste.

I hate straw-man arguments. They're for the birds!

Ha.

Okay, you've invoked the 'waugh straw man' before, so I kind of feel like Inigo Montoya here: you keep using this word, but I do not think it means what you think it means. :)

A straw man is misrepresenting a position so as to make an easier argument. Asking for clarification regarding your saying that you felt drawn artwork was amateurish is not misrepresenting your position. There's no position to misrepresent. That's what you said, right there. I didn't say you said all hand-drawn art was amateurish. I asked for clarification on your position, and explained why I felt that perhaps you were getting a little too into the appeal to probability or the slippery slope.

I have never, in my entire RP career, seen icons that appeared to be drawn by a three year-old nephew in crayon used seriously (tongue in cheek, sure). Sure, it's possible they exist, but it's ridiculous to make the value judgment that if drawn art is allowed, surely there will by crap included (re: 'appeal to probability'). However, I see -- often, seriously, just check the directory -- dreadfully and desperately inappropriate real-world PBs. Clive Owen was just a recent example.

Ridiculous nitpicking: also a problem. I interpreted your 'request for clarification' as an argument against what I thought was a clear and intuitive point. If you think my earlier points were difficult to understand, I can only conclude you were being deliberately obtuse.

Also, I'm insulted that you'd think I don't know the meaning of 'straw man argument'. Not that I can do anything about it; nor will I resort to ad hominem any more than I have already.

Subtlety, dear. It happens.

As I said, this is a matter of taste. I think the reason you see weird playbys more often than bad art is because playbys are more prevalent on forums than art, and obviously my description was hyperbolic in any case.

Is there really a point to this, or is it just a race for the last word?

Last word: zzz. Alphabetically and attentionally...

Gah, I find many drawings much more "realistic" than celebrities. C'mon, celebrities represent such a tiny percentage of the population, and they're chosen because they're thin (buff for guys) and they're pretty. But we, as a whole, are not. Actually, we're far from it.

Celebrities as PBs

• Thin
• Pretty
• "Perfect" features
• Not a single physical flaw

Anime as PBs

• Large eyes
• No noses
• No chins
• Hideous hair

In conclusion, I don't like mandatory PBs. It sucks.

I said nothing about the entire culture's art. I said anime. Anime is not all of the art Japan has to offer. I'm also pretty sure I did mention that there are many Western artists who fall into the same trap of drawing the same features, in the same way, with minor things such as skin tone or hair style changed to differentiate between their characters. And they bother me too, on many levels. You have no idea how many times I've complained to random people at my work (I work in a comic shop) that many artists need to improve on their ability to make characters with identifiable, unique, features.

The "problem" with anime as playbys, to me, is that they don't have enough facial diversity. I'm not arguing that coloring something some way doesn't make it unique, or that using a certain artistic technique (such as, say, cel coloring versus a rougher coloration technique) doesn't make something identifiable within the genre, I am stating I believe that the stylistic route anime has gone down has lead them to a place where one character's face looks very much like the next person's.

Even comparing realistic art versus a human, it's always going to be easier to identify uniqueness between two similar models than two similar characters. Because the way we take in features, it's easy for us to tell one person from another. But when art uses a set style, it is not only already at a disadvantage because it is not as real as a human, but instead a simplified representation, but it also has backed itself into a hole where people expect everything to be stylized a certain way. And, unlike some other forms of art, the basic rules that make up an anime's style, making it identifiable as anime, tends to leave behind it characters that look much alike.

I would also like to note I am not intending to attack anime as a form of art, or as an entertainment medium. I enjoy anime. Just looking around my room, I have seven different anime posters hanging on my wall. I even own a few Japanese art books I have paid a lot of money for, because I enjoy the art. I'm not trying to say anime is evil or anything, just that I'm not sure it's the best for use of playbys.

On another note, I'm going to argue with your point that the style of wide-eyes developed because of the "windows to the soul" thing. The large eyes evolved because, actually, Japan saw our cartoons and emulated them. Disney, Betty Boop, etc. If you look at Japanese art prior to their cartoons, the anime, it looked very, very different. Now, maybe the "wide-eyed = more innocent" thing does hold a little weight, but that is really because... well, wide-eyed things look more childlike, thus, they give the allusion of more innocence. We use this "trick" in much Western art as well.