Good writing has many components. The most important, in my opinion, is that it reflect life. That can happen even when grammar falls to the wayside. I did read Lima’s rant and the subsequent responses that seemed to just become an absurd game of “let me catch your mistakes” and smacked of that elitism that surrounds people who become obsessed with the tiny details that surround writing and not the big picture of writing.

I am not posting in Lima's rant, because it is becoming more of a debate and I know what it's like to suddenly be shuttled down that path after posting a rant. I do think grammar deserves more discussion. Can you look past it? Can a roleplayer be considered advanced if they don't adhere to steadfast grammar rules?

Many famous writers have ignored the hard-fast rules of grammar. Among them are Kerouac, Beats Ginsberg, Austin, Cummings, and Shakespeare. A contemporary writer, José Saramago, winner of the 1998 Nobel Prize for Literature, doesn’t use quotations marks, has single paragraphs that go on for several pages, and even has a single sentence that is over 700 words long.

While some of you may dismiss them as writers you don’t like, it doesn’t matter, because obviously many, many people did. Their writing succeeded in reaching people, and that happened without perfect grammar. The goal of writing is to reach people. The goal of writing is not to have every grammar rule firmly in place.

The goal of roleplaying seems to be to share story, to create on the fly, to have fun. It shouldn't be about sweating if you have all your commas in the right place or you used "their" for "there". Hell, I have done that when I typing fast. I fix it if I notice it, if not, who the hell cares? The other writer got the message of the post--even if the post was flawed.

RPG writing should allow for flaws. It's not about pre-writing and re-writing. It is now-writing. It's improvisation. It's thinking on your feet. It's an escape from rules and the tedious things in life. It's about a variety of people at a variety of levels who have the common goal to want to share this kind of experience.

I do believe knowing grammar gives you a sense of power over language and the ability to mold and manipulate it. However, I also see that it used as tool of elitism against other writers. I have read some writing at various RPG’s that advertise here. I have seen writing that is grammatically intact and also absolute boring crap. Sorry, I am not looking at your well-placed semi-colin in awe. (I am also not impressed with that hefty vocabulary you are lugging around like a bag of gold. Simple can be a whole lot more powerful and reach a lot more people.)

You can spend a lot of time losing yourself in picking apart a writer’s grammar and miss the beauty and the heat of what they are writing.

I understand that boards want to maintain certain standards in order to attract members, but you may be turning away writers who are can bring a lot by way of character and story development. I am not saying to disregard every standard and let everyone who applies in. I am saying, lighten up.

Save your steadfast grammar rules for your graduate thesis. Keep creating writing creative.

I have to agree with a lot of this. I roleplay for fun. I sometimes roleplay while doing about a million other necessary things since I live in the grown-up world. I am sure I make mistakes and I won't ever claim to be anywhere near perfect when it comes to grammar. I think I write well enough that people can understand me without being distracted by a forgotten comma or whatever.

I have played on games where they take themselves way too seriously. I don't usually stay. They aren't any fun to me. It's why I am always at a crossroads when people advertise they are "advanced" or "literate". Some of them are just kind of stuck up and cliquey. I will be looking for a game or two for the summer and I am picky. Literate or advanced aren't the top sale point for me.

And yes, I think you can look past the flaws. I have played with some really great people who were not perfect writers (or spellers). I still enjoyed writing with them and some did improve over time.

I don't know about whether they'd be accepted as "advanced", only because there are a lot of people who'd would place grammar above everything else, or at least make it a very inclusive part. I'm not sure if that's right or wrong, but I know what you are saying as well. There should be more to it than grammar.

Good grammar is one thing. Perfect grammar is something else entirely. I write good grammar. At least, I hope I write good grammar, which isn't the same thing at all.

But while I'm writing in character, I will use 'bad English' - double negatives, things like ain't and the occasional 'g' dropped from the end of a word. Because that's part of how my character speaks and thinks. And if you can't get into charcter in your writing, what are you doing in an RPG?

Continuous bad grammar and l33t speak annoy me. To me, that's the sign of a lazy person. But you don't have to be the world's best writer to write grammatically sound sentences that people can read, and (hopefully!) reply to, and we are all hoping that people reply to what we post. Or we wouldn't be RP'ing. We'd be writing fanfic, or something.

I'm one of those people who's obsessed with language, and I have several books on grammar. It's amazing how often the people who point out other people's flaws are wrong.

But yes, when it comes to creative writing, I think some conventions can be disregarded. I use heaps of unconventional techniques when I'm writing in RPGs because I'm on the internet and I'm trying to keep interest.

I hate getting self-righteous PMs from people explaining to me that I can't write that way because "people won't understand" when the person writing the PM obviously understood perfectly.

It's why my board is open to anyone. If you can get your message across, I don't care how "bad" your post is.

I agree. One of my best online friends (I've known her for over six years) is an amazing writer, and she takes some liberty with her commas. Bad grammar does occasionally bother me, but hers isn't bad enough of the time to matter. She's great. Her writing makes me laugh, and I adore all of her characters. It's close enough, it flows, and as long as I can feel her characters, I'm happy. Good grammar does not make good writing. (Well...decent grammar is an important step. xD But just because your grammar is perfect doesn't mean that you're a good writer.)

What I care about the most is that whatever you're writing is clear and easy to understand. Part of that is decent grammar. To use a classic example, "eats shoots and leaves" and "eats, shoots, and leaves" mean two very different things. Now, that said, I'm not one to split hairs. I won't flip out if you use a semicolon incorrectly. Heck, I probably screw up semicolons too.

There are a few things that grind my gears, though. I cringe when people mix up "your" and "you're" or "it's" and "its." I really can't stand it when people don't use punctuation because they think it doesn't look cool. I think it's unreadable, especially since lack of punctuation often goes with itty bitty text.

*shiver*

I'm not the best at it, but I can tell a good story when it matters, and I suppose thats the point to it.

I am very obsessive over grammar. Even so, I try not to be a grammar nazi and hunt down people who don't follow specific rules. I think that people should take the time to proofread. This is an example of a post I would hate:

John said, "Your getting a little cubby."

My god, I cannot stand the sight of people mixing up your/you're. I usually allow grammar mistakes (even in my own writing) for dialogue; however, this applies only if the misuse of grammar is verbally recongizeable. You can't confuse "your" and "you're" when you speak. An example of a post I don't mind would be:

John continued, "The type of person I hate is a person who leaves their things lying around."

I very rarely mix up my subject/verb agreement and what not. Normal people though probably would not say "his or her things lying around". I usually try to abandon several grammar rules that I have set for myself when writing out dialogues, as sad as that makes me. Outside of dialogue I would prefer for people to use perfect grammar though because I think that it really contributes to one's status as a writer.

When it's all said and done, I would never PM somebody to tell them about a grammar mistake they made. I would just silently shake my head and forget about it a few moments later.

I'm not a grammar nazi but I do get distracted when confronted with too many mistakes. It pulls me straight out of whatever I'm reading and I'm less inclined to reply but I generally won't point it out because I can't be bothered. Instead there will be arched eyebrows and dramatic sighs and then all will be well with the world.

But a complete lack of commas drives me absolutely bananas. I need commas. I like commas. Commas are your friends. USE THEM. Please. Just once in your 500+ word post!

I'm with Sharpiefan. When I RP, I like to use the character's voice and sometimes that entails colloquial grammar. I've purposefully used "their" instead of "his or her" a great many times because that's how people speak. However, while I far from expect perfect grammar, I do believe there is a saturation point, so to speak, of bad grammar, which makes the piece of writing illegible. Beta pleated sheet gives a great example. There should be room for flexibility on both sides.

We are the same, I give people the benefit of the doubt (as in some cases the person is dyslexic or does not have English as their first language) and they turn out to be awesome writers. I know it can be frustrating if you are RPing with someone whose posts are littered with mistakes, but our advice is simple. Don't RP with them. The internet is huge and our site is a massive world with LOADS of members. I won't turn people away based on poor grammar. If you are an expert, or very good at it, it is your duty to help people. They might not go to a very good school, they might have learnt to read at the age of 21, you don't know what brought them to your board.

We do have mods who are more grammar conscious with profiles then others, I am more lenient, but it means we have balance. It is good to be kept honest by good grammar and people keeping you honest with constructive criticism (we have a training ground for this), but Elitism and Grammar Nazi's do my head in.

I'm sorry, but duty? Why is it my duty to help a person with grammar? I can think of plenty of other individuals such as the person's parents, siblings or teachers whom that responsibility should fall on. This sort of attitude is a really bad pet peeve of mine. Just because someone happens to do well in a subject does not mean that they can communicate it well too. (Take some professors for instance.) A writer might know whether a comma belongs here or there etc but they might not necessarily be able to tell you why, even if they are very good at it. It's one thing if someone chooses to help; it's another that they should be expected to do so. You complain about Elitism but holding a person in lower regard because they do not help others for whatever reason (be it time or inability)/conform to your view of what the proper course of action should be is a form of elitism in and of itself.

Wow... duty... hm.

I had a really long reply to this, but I shall simplfy this because I am not in any mood to debate 'duty' online. x.x

If *you have the time to be arsy about grammar and criticize you should take the time to explain WHY its wrong. If you do not know why its wrong or can't explain it properly, then why say anything at all?

The only thing I believe people should conform to is being nice. There is no excuse for being rude in life, or online.

FYI, I do not hold people who do not help for whatever reason in lower regard (I sure as hell do not dismiss peoples reasons for not helping. Why would I do that when I do not dismiss peoples reasons for not being good at grammar?). I did not say that, but meanings get lost online all the time (my poor articulation and diction does not help either). I hold people who criticize rather then help in contempt. That is not Elitism that is having contempt for overtly rude people. They are not lower then me, or anyone else who helps, they are just rude people whom I dislike.

I, A/ Do not think that people who do help deserve favour or are superior because they choose to help (I reiterate -- I DO NOT think people who help are superior in any way, which if I was elitist I would) and B/ Do not see people with poor grammar as inferior in any way.

Admittedly the use of the word duty did suggest one lowering oneself to the poor peoples lower plane of existence to help them reach the dizzy heights of grammar godliness. Its not what I meant at all and apologise for sounding like a gobshite. :p




*you is being used in a general way

Ah ok. Like I said before, the subject is a really bad pet peeve of mine. Sorry for jumping the gun on you.

Its hard to know someone's meaning when you are reading it (especially if said person - aka me - has poor diction). I have had arguments with real life friends over IM because we misunderstood what was typed. Then we pick up the phone or meet and are like "Ooooooooh, you see it sounded like you said such and such."

It doesn't help that my brain is fried from exams and I cannot articulate myself when talking about this topic. :p I suck at debates. Always have. :p

I'm way too awesome for grammar, dude.

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^-^;;

I was thinking about this the other day actually when I saw the rant posted. I read the first couple of replies then turned up my nose. I'm not grammar-1337, see. I frequently make mistakes on here because I write the way I talk--that's how I think, see. Then I leave it because I like raw writing, especially on a place like this. It drives Emma batshit, which is also a plus -duck-.

I don't pay much attention, really. I rarely do a proper grammar check of my posts because I largely do free-writing. Firefox catches most of my spelling mistakes but I trust myself not to make glaring errors. Again I have the same problem of writing as though I am voicing an opinion as opposed to creating a structured written argument. I was told when I was 12 that it gave me a 'distinct voice' and I've been too egotistical to change it since. Whatever, man.

If the post is a good one, I don't notice grammar because I basically ignore it. My brain gives the writing its own pace--one that I think suits--and anything else be damned. If I'm faced with a bland piece of writing; the grammar is the only thing that makes it interesting. The only thing that jars me are those spelling errors wherein you type the wrong word.

Lenore didn'[t know how to took it

The bracket I skip over completely. I'm reading a post not going over a potential applicant. The change in tense however, throws me because that's not a grammatical error (although it looks like one) it's a spelling error. The brain shifted its thought process or skipped ahead. It's not a big deal and I will play with people who do this because I do it too! It's just a pothole.

If the SPAG is bad to the point of the post being a chore to read, then there is a problem. Roleplaying is only about the writing if you can read it in the first place.

And now, because RomanHK has Sinister in his avatar, I must name my first-born after him.

Sok NR; I'm guilty of that too. :p

And Panda deserves a tacklehug for being a Sinister fan! He's always been my favorite villain. (I get royalties for the name right? :lol: )

And I just realized that I was rambling. To keep this on topic, look at the horrible grammar above. x.x

I am what people call a Grammar Nazi, and I'm totally okay with that. I love grammar and it annoys me to no end when people slaughter it, but:

One of the best RPers I've played with had no grammar skills whatsoever. It annoyed people and they'd get upset, but I'd encourage him to keep writing. Why? Because other people who believed in pristine and perfect grammar had crap writing, but this guy's stuff was fantastic. I am totally cool with overlooking grammar mistakes for the sake of RPing. Creativity is the most important part of roleplaying.

However, were it published work and it looked like that (prose, not poetry b/c poetry is a separate entity of its own), I would have cried for days on end. [/exaggeration]

What really, really annoys me about grammar is when you get the power-trippy administrators who demand that everyone use perfect grammar and then they themselves make mistakes in the rules or some other basic place. My favorite are sentences that go like this: "you MUST have good grammar, if you don't have good grammar you'll be kicked out." Comma splice anyone?

In conclusion, RPing is more than just grammar and that coming from a Grammar Freak is important. I recognize the fact that we're not professionals on any level and we're just here to have fun. However, I have no mercy with hypocrites.

I agree with you for the most part. I love the powerful pull of a good story and would choose that addictive kind of intrigue over rigorous and strict grammar presentation any day. Some of my favourite authors today aren't masters of the grammar trade, but their stories are too damn delicious NOT to eat up. I couldn't care less if they splice a comma, I LOVE their characters.

There is one thing to be said for grammar, though, and that is 'know the rules before you break them.' At least if you're going to be as deliberate about breaking them as the authors you named, that is. With their literary voice, the lack of grammar worked, but in other cases it leaves the piece of writing virtually illegible. There's a difference between broken grammar serving the voice of the work and broken grammar reducing it to non-sensical gibberish.

If the characters and story are interesting enough, though, I can even overlook that. Some of the people I've played with in the past didn't have a very strong handle of grammar to begin with. One of my favourite RP buddies actually came into my first RP with no previous knowledge of RP and no previous experience writing creatively, but she had the kind of imagination and memory for detail that makes me green with envy. I think I've been RPing with her for six or so years now and she's a beautiful writer and one of the best internet friends I've made. :)

RPing =/= writing workshop.

I treat good grammar as the icing on the cake, when it comes to new members. If they can create a coherent, believable character and draw a scene I can halfway visualize, I'll accept. If I can't navigate the rocky terrain of one of their sentences, I won't accept. Thus, all the members on my board are good enough that I'm not driven crazy, and thus, I don't have to comment upon or think about grammar when I post with them. They have enough good grammar. Not too much, not too little--some are near-perfect, which I adore--but who needs to stress out about it?

RPing is a game. It's meant to be for fun. While I am somewhat hard on applications, I will never, ever comment upon a player's grammar, spelling, etc. after they're accepted. As an admin, that's how I deal with it. As a player, I just... don't... RP... with the writers... I don't like... it's easy.

Moderation in all things.

Yep, ditto. RPing = fun. I don't care about the grammar and spelling as long as I can understand it. :3

I play with a number of people who have grammar/spelling issues but y'know what? Their characters and plots rock and their writing is awesome. They just have a wonderful way with words (O_o unintentional alliteration, whoaz!). I don't even care about your/you're or there/they're/their mix-ups or anything. I used to do it, and if I'm writing really fast and not paying attention, I'll slip sometimes and groan about it later when I re-read the post and catch it. :B It's an easy mistake to make and hell, it took me forever to finally grasp how to use the different forms. >_>

Ahem.

But yeah. Some people are just plain awesome at creating a character and weaving a story, but the mechanics may not be their strong point. I know plenty of people like that and they're a freakin' blast to play with. If you're good at both the story-telling and the mechanics, consider yourself blessed. ;D Me? I dunno. I have good spelling, but grammar? Ahaha, I pretty much write how I talk, so I dunno. I know I abuse the comma which is something I've been trying to correct, but yeah. *shrug* No one's complained. xP

I don't like grammar nazis. |: Yes it's important, but sweet jeebus on a rocketship, get over yourselves, mang.

Also pardon any extra speshul word manglings here. I gots teh flu and the world ish dizzeh. :B