The roleplaying world has become the fodder for snobs. It was bound to happen. It happens whenever they herd writers together. Writers don’t really belong together, except at writer’s conventions where they can hire security and shuffle us to single rooms at the end of the night before things get ugly and the feeding frenzy begins.

I am growing to really dislike many people in the world of RP. It's not surprising to learn that they are also spawn of various creative writing and english programs.

Creative Writing Programs breed monsters. They get fat on compliments and become enraged at any who dare question their beautiful work, their perfect word choice, their eloquent turn of phrase. They are a scary crowd who stare loving into their own prose that shines back with their own beaming reflection. All the while they stomp over smaller writers or eat them alive. It’s survival. What else can you expect?

English Degree Programs breed demons who believe they have superpowers to deconstruct any bit of text you set before them. These ugly beasts mutate normal language into their highly specialized tongue of rare word gems that they believe will hypnotize the masses and make them worship their brilliant minds. They regurgitate bits of text and names of writers for you to admire. They come up with deeper meanings and connections of a wrok of fiction than even the writer intended. Why? Well, because they are gods. Demon gods, but all the same. They obviously know more than the writer and more than you. Duh.

Dual degrees in English and Creative Writing usually just create mutants who are constantly at battle with themselves, deconstructing as they are writing. They trip over there fancy thoughts chasing down raw human emotion that is just out of their reach. . It’s a sad legacy really. We should pity them, step out of their way and hope they don’t breed.

RPG Bandits are often rogue members of these groups. They slip into the roleplaying world like phantoms and lay down their traps. They feed off the weak. They entrance you and make you offer up your inferior prose that they suck into their black souls. They despise you but they need you. You make them feel better. You prove to them they are right.

I have seen so many complaint threads about how awful members are, how they don't measure up. I have been to boards where members are warned to not powerplay, yet admins overwhelm the board with micromanagement and deathgrip on creative freedom. It’s their way or the highway.

I don’t think it will change. This is too good for writers who need their egos stroked. Advanced board owners claim they just want high caliber writers. I think they more want high caliber compliments because they are a better currency then what average or poor writers offer them.

I am a confident writer, but I don’t take myself too seriously in roleplaying. Why should I? It’s a game. Even in the big world of “serious” writing, I don’t need or want people to love me. I write because it’s a deep part of who I am as a person. I work hard at writing and get haunted by words I am searching for at times. I write to be read, but more I write because I need to. What I don’t do is walk about dropping author names and what books I have read. That just tells me a person is desperately trying to impress others. I saw it in my writing program and shared a few laughs with my level-headed professor on the topic. Believe it or not, some professors don’t ride the intellectual high horse. They are brilliant without it.

I have talked about my experience as a writer on here in various threads and with various people. I do have a background in writing that I don’t feel I need to hide. I don’t believe I have ever glossed up my creative writing badge and shined it anyone’s face. I don’t list publications or talk about my outside writing projects. Why? Because it’s not important to roleplaying and frankly, who the hell would care. If I said anything I can imagine I'd hear the collective cluck of tongues and the little indignant whispers of "Just who does RyanA think he is anyway?"

On the other hand, I worked hard to get that degree, and I do have some insights to offer that others might not. There are others on here with similar backgrounds who also could bring a lot to the table. They usually don’t because they are not well-received. If you know something useful, you should just shut up about it. That's the message. It's not given off by the staff here, it just seems to be the accepted board culture of this place.

Ironically, it’s okay to display visual creative work and have people offer tips and advice on how to make it better.

This roleplay world seems dominated by females and I do believe there is a current moving beneath it that makes talking about one’s strengths seem threatening (and maybe unfeminine). There is this constant sense of attack if one doesn’t cushion the language in a bunch of hems and haws. If you talk direct, you are arrogant, even if the language you use holds no arrogance. You are arrogant. Yet, I have seen some folks who do identify themselves as female come on with such unbelievable arrogance that even I am shocked. It’s not direct language—it’s more than that. It’s more like “I am so better than you so don’t tell me anything”.

I loved being in a writing program and hated it all the same. I saw so much of the same crap—and much of it went on amongst the female writers. I stayed clear of those pointless battles and yet, I will say it outloud on here now because I am sick of feeling like nothing is okay to say on here without upsetting the entire population or coming across as arrogant--I was one of the writers who floated to the surface, who got noticed in the program, who was nominated for and won awards for my work. I was one asked to represent undergrads at readings for our university and I was recruited into the grad program. So yeah, I am not a god of writing, but I know what the hell I am talking about.

I like talking about writing and tossing ideas back and forth. That is not something I can do on this board. There is too much estrogen or something. I dunno.

I needed to let off a little steam tonight about this crap.

I am happy to be among the writers on my own board who really don’t lose themselves in this process of being superior or to this sense of being intellectually attacked. They write to share story, not to pummel others on the board. They write to have fun, not to aspire to great feats of roleplaying. They are a great group of people who allow for writing differences and overlook what isn’t done perfectly. We talk about all sorts of things and no one feels threatened. I don't know what it is on here, but tonight I feel freaking sick of it.

Look what you did now Sam. :p


Kidding aside, I think you should just act on your whims and do what you want to do. Hell with what people think; it's just opinion. I've started arguments over much more stupid topics so I'm sure you'd be justified. I also know I'm guilty of at least some of the things you described and I'd be open to anything you might want to suggest or at least explain myself so you never know.


Oh, and here's to testosterone!

Well, I can only hope this doesn't reference me, because that would be, at best, ill-informed (and besides, pfft, for some reason I trust RyanA to be relatively direct with me if he really is talking about me).

I'm a bit offended by the generalization about females, gotta admit it. I'm female, and I'm very confident--but I'm never mean to my members. And I don't derive my RP satisfaction from bad writers, which are most usually just very young writers. I just like to find people who are good enough that I enjoy writing with them. So much to ask? I don't think having standards is a problem, RyanA, but I do find it puzzlingly unfair that you are attacking women, and in such vague and ambiguous terms.

<<<<<<<<ED: In fact, I saw just a great many prejudicial judgments here, Ryan. Here's the thing: I don't think there's a person in an academic setting who doesn't sometimes mention an author's name (I do so because, guess what, people know what I'm talking about and then we get to freak out over how amazing Nabokov is and then rent the Kubrick version of "Lolita", which is awesome, or just talk about literature for hours, and who doesn't like that?). There are also people who write in 'purple' prose and it's totally fine. It's fun to read, it's beautiful, and there's plot. But you dismiss, in a sweeping gesture, whole swathes of people... which is just... well, fruitless. I used to get righteous, in a similar way, about Mary Sue writers, but ultimately? Who cares? What's in it for you, is what I end up wondering. You can't dismiss people as judgmental and exclusive when you've just made yourself into an exclusive group of one, it's sort of, dare I say, hypocritical.

Estrogen? Jesus, it's hard not to get offended and feminist about that, and I hate feminism. Well. I like to talk about writing, too, but not with people who tend to attack and go on a rabid rampage at slightest pretext (yes, to be blunt, I AM talking about you). In my last thread, I opened up a discussion about a more embellished style, emphasizing the beauty of the language, as opposed to the minimalism that's trendy right now. No answers to that. It seems to be easier for you to make sweeping, dismissive statements than to discuss. Yes, I was complaining about a lack of creativity, but I wasn't attacking you personally, or, in fact, anyone on my board personally. Nor do I speak the way I do in the Rants forum on my board (this should be obvious, but it seems it is not).

At risk of quoting someone else famous (sorry, but he said it better): 'Mind your own garden.' Righteous over pretentious people is its own pretention (how do you spell that? Pretension? Eh). >>>>

OK, that does sound like you're addressing me, but, ha, at least I'm complaining here and not on my board. Then I bite my tongue and let my members enjoy themselves. I never, ever barge in on plotlines after I've accepted someone, which is, uhduh, why I have acceptance standards to begin with.

Having intrinsic standards is NOT cruel. How you treat others may be cruel, but the standards themselves are aesthetic, internal, and not something you can turn off. I feel the same way when I read a bad book. It makes me wince, and I'll want to stop reading. You may judge people for how they feel inside, but that's as silly as persecuting 'thought crimes.'

I mean, for my part, I RP to have fun. I was on a board run by some reasonably picky writers, and it wasn't that much fun. On the other hand, I think it's not a problem to limit whom you accept based on (and this is honestly my only criterion, when you come down to it) coherence and comprehensibility and a basic grasp of English. It's about the environment you want to create. Heck, my creative writing class is subject to a rigorous application process--the prof only accepts a certain number, based on a writing sample, and why do you think that is? Not because he wants to be 'elite' (partly because he wants to limit class size) but because he wants to pick people who will be able to relate comfortably. Someone miles behind in terms of writing ability just won't contribute as much or, in point of fact, have fun (analagous to this, few people RP with the apps I accept when they're 'borderline', that is, needed a lot of revising to be comprehensible).

At the same time, I have to admit I'm not so much a fan of RP anymore, least of all this board, which breeds bile even as it lets us vent it. What say.

My Creative Writing classes haven't, luckily, fallen prey to any of what you describe. We're lucky enough to have an awesome prof who emphasizes not style--we actually don't talk about it at all, as my proliferation of wince-worthy parenthical remarks probably shows--but 'emotional stakes.' In a typical class, we analyze people's stories as if they were already-published works. 'What themes do you see?' etc. It's criticism so mild it's practically not criticism--except that you come away from it with a very, very good understanding of where your work fell short in doing what you want to do. Heck, you even learn just what you wanted to do in the first place. When I'm writing, I don't tend to see all of my themes clearly--I just ride off of whatever words and images fit the movie unspooling in my head. This approach--analysis over nitpicking, I'd say--turns out to be great for stepping from first-draft to second, and, actually, everything afterwards.

Here's something Jim Shepard, my teacher (ohdear, now you all can look up where I go to school, but I have to publicize his name because I love him and he deserves kudos--also, you should all buy his books. Ha) says at the end of every semester (he may be quoting from somewhere). "Here's a reliable hint you may be a writer. You can't stop writing, even though doing it makes you feel inadequate." That's a paraphrase; he put it much better.

Your post saddened me, RyanA, more than anything. I do not impose my draconian creative-writing standards (those I hold for myself are cripplingly high, at least in the editing stage) on RP. Nor, I've realized, do I hold the same standards for people's conduct in RP and in RL. And that's sad.

Sadder still is the sense of the 'elite' Creative Writer. I realize that if I want to do something with writing that could earn me money--not necessarily likely--I'll probably have to deal with this mindset in real life, and that sucks.

Unrelated: our philosophy department suffers from some of the problems you describe. I.e., elitism, name-dropping. Sucketh. On the other hand, we're all just human, all too human. Hey, look, I didn't name-drop there. Guess who said that before me! Pretention, over and out.

Has it been widely known that RyanA is male and I've completely missed it?

Please elaborate on that! I want to know where you've seen it (if you want to go into specifics about people, thought, PM is better ^_^). I know a lot of the topics discussed here at RPG-D are pretty much opinion-based and however much people argue that isn't going to change, but maybe there are some you're thinking of that are different?

EDIT: Oh okaaaay. Nevermind. I found it.

I love my Creative Writing class. My teacher is so fun - she acts everything out and makes us do that too. Her spelling also sucks xD

Isn't is amazing how putting things in context changes your entire view? What I had to say is now completely moot because I understand the backstory (or at least part) of your post.

I agree with Sam when she says that having standards can't change. You can't turn them off. I do think that if you believe your standards should apply to yourself alone that you should do your best to keep them that way (and oh my is it hard).

I think a big part of the problem you're having is that over the Interwubs we cannot have inflection, tone, body language. Something written may be offensive, but when said it becomes helpful, even loving. To accept criticism over the Internet you either have to be very thick-skinned, or you have to fully understand the concept of misinterpretation and only talk to those people whose online writing is something you can get, or there will be problems.

Personality differences also come into play, remember! What one person sees as insulting may not be intended that way. Sam and I have conflicts because I am a puir, sensitive soul (-sob-) and she is a strong, self-confident woman who doesn't believe in padding things with unnecessary fluff. I like fluff! I understand this about both of us. Gender does play its part (with you and her - and us) but personality types do also. As does a person's mood when they read and then reply to things. It can cause people to misinterpret things very, very badly.

I hope your mood brightens and you manage to work this out ^_^ It would not do to have you disenchanted with us all (though you may be as unhappy with people in RL as you like :p).

Minor nitpicking for the sake of a better idea of the conversation:

The role-playing world has always been snobbish. We're all nerds, whether we're people who table-top or LARP or RP online. Nerds, as a generality, take what little they can get. Snobbery stems from that. It's been that way in the online RP world for around twenty years and is certainly not a new phenomenon.

Online RP and women/girls. Well, yes. Because the bulk of online RPG is an offshoot of fandoms and, in a way, fanfiction writing. These are things women traditionally gravitate towards rather than men. It's the flip side of your standard MMORPG stereotype where there's a wealth of men and a dearth of women. However, it's also about finding the right game with the right combination of people, as I'm sure you already know.

I believe that you are GRAVELY mistaken. Within the last....year and a half or so, women have FLOODED MMOs. [Atleast compared to prior statistics.] Approximately 20% of the players on WoW are women [ out of a user base of over 8 million.] And that's just one example.


And so that I'm not completely off topic.....

I don't believe that RP should all be about how much better someone is at writing a large post with alot of pointless details that don't help at all with the next post. Which I don't do...generally. I'm more of a meat and bones writer, relevant dialogue and detail.

And cheers for testosterone!!!!

*Points toward RyanA and claps*

In order to avoid falling into the excruciatingly well-baited bear trap of "I hate women because all women are snobs, oh and also English majors too, especially women English majors," I'd like to just address one thing -- since when was 20% considered a flooding? I mean, sure, 20% > 1%, but that's still only one-fifth of a population. Since when was that ever considered balanced?

TwilightDawn: As I said, the stereotype. I'm not arguing women in MMORPGs -- I was one until last fall -- but there are more men than women. There have been more men than women. And stereotypes being off-shoots of truisms, there will likely always be more men than women. So thank you, Cal, for saying what you did, as that was my original point. :)

And now let's get back on topic!

There is a snobby and elitist attitude about roleplays, and I don't believe for a second that it is all a 'females overrun the boards' problem. ALL writers have egos. ALL of them. Even RyanA and SmathNa and AshBeanNun. Some are just bigger or smaller or tougher or more easily bruised. I like my writing more than most others because it is my style, my words, and my subject. It's me. I think that other writers see it the same personal way, and that is what makes it hard to take criticism. Lucky for me, I'm a pro writing major, which means I'm a business witch and artistic soul rolled into one, so any ego-bruising is temporary.

Real writers, all of them, learn to accept criticism graciously. They also learn how to show respect for another person's work.

I think, Ryan, that by pointing out only female writers who are bad, you are turning yourself into a roleplay snob yourself. If you don't like the way women write and communicate, you have no business being in RPG. I know that's not what you were trying to say, but it sounded a lot like it. You'd better be careful with your rant focus, or you will be hunted down and executed by all these women English majors running around. *I'm really not joking about this. They have lots of sharp writing implements and strong words with which to crucify you*

Remember that the roleplay world is dominated by females. Naturally, there will be more snobby female writers than male. And if you don't understand the way women work, it may seem like there are more than there really are.

This is a rant. I didn’t post it in the ‘Let me talk nicely so no one thinks I am arrogant’ forum. I felt irked and I needed to vent. I didn’t feel like editing out my gut emotion on this one and I won’t make apologies for it.

I attacked no one personally. No one. The “estrogen” to which I refers lends to the sense that everyone has to cushion their commentary and hedge their opinions or people fly off the handle. It lends itself to the idea of women being over-reactive and reading more into something then what’s actually there. This rant included.

I think that some people here on this board tend to react over- the- top. Here—not on every roleplay board. As I said,this has nothing to do with Shinli or the staff.

I stand by my comments because they are the raw end of what I have felt here for some time. I didn't offer them up with apologies or politically correct editing. I won't now.

RomanHk-

Thanks for getting it. I needed to vent.

Smathna-

You take things way too personally and make them way too personal. I can’t say what I’d really like to say because I’d be banned, so I will just move away from your verbose response now.

Emma-

I never identified myself as either. You didn’t miss anything.

Yup. Good point. My skin is thick, it's my patience that runs thin. Thanks for letting me vent.

Tapestry-

You are probably right. I have only roleplayed about three years.

Jay Serge-

Thanks for the support

Cal-

It wasn't all women English majors. It was some of the women writers in my particular creative writing program. I despise English majors of all genders equally.

Twighlight Dawn-

I agree.

Ashbean-

I didn't point out only female writers. I pointed out females in my creative writing program and females (in general) on this particular board who overreact.

Even in this rant, some people have reacted by taking information out of context and shoving it into a context that makes them feel self-righteous.

There seems to always be the need for a perceived personal attack.

See there is the problem; women think this jerky behavior is allowed them as women. If a man behaves in the same way, he is an arrogant asshole. She can be emotional, snotty, over-reactive and aggressive--but she is just asserting herself.

That's bull.

But none the less- the rant was about snobbery. There are those who can screw with the context of my post and make it fit their retaliatory purposes. The fact is, you have to walk on eggshells with many on here. And many are bent on twisting content and intent of posts.

This was a rant. A place to be raw and angry and real. That's what I did.

I have been amongst all sorts of writers and academics and this rant was a longtime coming and not even a portion of what I really think.

In the RP world, I write with male and female writers. Great writers and great people. They just aren't caught up in the snobbery vacuum.

Yeek! No, no, and NO some more. I as a woman do NOT think jerky behavior is acceptable, and I do NOT think that kind of behavior is acceptable from anyone. I understand hormones. I have 'em (though I just become weepy rather than aggressive). But just like with anything, I feel there is no excuse for misdirected rage at any time, male or female, and anyone who uses their bad day/hormones/etc. as an excuse for bad behavior is an arse in my opinion. There is no excuse.

*slaps the people who use it as an excuse*

Anyway...

Hahaha. xD I'm an English major (graduate) and took creative writing classes, but if anything it only served to humble me more. I'm already a very humble person, but my classes were very...honest? The teachers weren't afraid to rip stuff to shreds, the students weren't afraid to offer honest and helpful feedback. And I have always gotten a somewhat masochistic pleasure out of having my stuff nitpicked and torn apart. xD; It's because I know I'm not perfect, I know there's a lot I need to learn and work on, and if no one points out the flaws then I may not see them. That's the only way I can get better, and the way I see it, no matter what you write you can always do better. It's a never-ending process and if you're a good writer then you'll never stop growing and never stop developing your style. :3

Otherwise...that'll just mean you've stagnated.

Honestly, in all the writing programs I was in, the ones with egos were the professors. Oh...and a few students. I can remember a few who thought they were all that and a bag of chips until they got hit up with honest critique. Now, the classes were by no means brutal; people were not cruel. They were super duper helpful and I know I learned a lot from my peers' feedback and honesty. But some people just can't handle that, and a few did leave. :\

Anyway! As for snobbery in the RPG world itseeelf...

Indeed, it's always been there. I've been RPing for 11+ years, and it has always been there, though I will admit that coming to invisionfree and proboards was like major culture shock for me (and still is to an extent), because the RPG culture is very, very different from other places and...more superficial, as well. ^^;; But that's just a general observation and sweeping generalization. ;3 Take it with a grain of salt, y'all! *hugs*

The trick is to just find a game where it doesn't exist. And those games do exist if you know where to look. :3 Not all RPers are stuck up monsters! A lot of people are humble and RP not because they're trying to write the next great American novel, but simply because it's fun and they enjoy it. I play with a lot of such people, and they are awesome writers, nice people, and incredibly fun and enthusiastic! I love and adore my own games for this reason; I have yet to see anyone display arrogance. People are just in it to have fun, to bounce ideas off each other, and it's good times for all and no stress. Threads get snatched up like free candy. People overlook differences in writing style and just have fun, which is what it's all about, yo.

I don't want to play with "elites"; the word itself reeks of arrogance, and I'm not comfortable with that. I would rather play with a mediocre writer who's nice and knows how to have fun and joke than a great writer of Robert Jordan proportions who is arrogant and stiff. The mediocre writer can learn and grow. It's more difficult to curb arrogance and snobbery, and those sorts of people simply aren't fun to play with. :\

...Erm, I digressed a lot.

But I don't think the problem is just here. EVERYWHERE you are going to find snobbish people or people with thin skins or people you have to walk on eggshells around because they will interpret everything said (even helpful) as an attack. Age and experience can also contribute. And oh man, if you wanna talk about RP snobbery in females, be careful should you ever venture to GaiaOnline. There the reverse is true (though GaiaOnline as a whole is full of arses. xD HOWEVER! Just like anywhere it's not true for everyone there; I have met some awesome and wonderful people there that I loves to death. <3).

It has nothing to do with the sex of the person. It just has to do with people being, well, people. Forums are dominated by females. Chat-based RPGs (Yahoo) are dominated by males. It would be unfair of me to make a sweeping assessment about male RPers based on what I've encountered on yahoo (and trust me, boys, you do NOT want to be compared to THAT) just as it is unfair to make a sweeping assessment of female RPers based on this. The truth is, anywhere there's a lot of people, there are gonna be a fair share of arses. And if it's a place dominated by one gender, then yeah, it's gonna seem like that gender is really bad--but it's not because it actually is, it's just because the majority of people are that gender so of course most of the bad ones are gonna share the gender!

;3

I say just take a breather, take what's said online with a grain of salt, and cling to the people you get along with.

u kno ilu, bb. <3

I'm coming out of my hole in the ground for a moment.

"Snobbery" in RP is, as has already been stated, largely inevitable. You open up a venue - such as free-hosted forums like InvisionFree - to a large and diverse group of writers, you're bound to get varying levels of arrogance and snobbery. It sucks but it happens. Ruck up, suck up, move on.

Having said that, it really does no good to paint any one specific group with a brush of any size. Trends and attitudes come and go. They're also often perpetuated - not to mention tolerated - by mostly everyone. Saying that it's a tendency of female RPers or English majors to have a snobby or elitist attitude is wide of the mark. Arrogance knows no gender or creed.

Gender, in the RP world, should not be an issue where players themselves are concerned. There's plenty to worry about as far as personality conflicts and differing opinions go, without adding in the factor of whether the majority of RPers are male or female. It shouldn't matter. Neither should it matter what other boards do if it has no direct impact upon your own board and RPing experience. Sure, it's natural to get annoyed and wound up because of the conduct and/or disposition of other players.

I'll readily admit to having a bit of a "snobbish" attitude where actual RPing is concerned, because I've come to expect good writing, good plots, and all-round good things from my fellow players. This, of course, quickly lends itself to constant disappointment when I go looking for other boards and discover that they don't meet the standards that I've set, but it's an opportunity for an ego-check. Not everything will measure up and part of the draw of RPing is the challenge of finding boards that are both interesting and have the potential of knocking down the blinders that are created by playing on one board for a long time.

Encounter, adapt, and overcome. Or simply treat the entire RP-world as a free-fire zone.


I'm crawling back to my hole now.

RyanA- I agree with a lot of what you said and understand that you won't apologize for a rant when it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but please try and keep in mind that a rant aimed towards female members at this particular site is bound to upset the most active female members at this site. Not saying you should have edited yourself at all, or that anyone should be upset at this, but you also have to accept that a rant like this was bound to get reactions.

I'm not taking this personally at all, as I'm almost positive I haven't said or done anything at this site that would justify me being labeled as elitist or as having a bit too much estrogen, but it is perfectly logical for the active females here to be defensive about this. They have as much right to address this rant as you have to post it.

Snobbery in RP? WHERE?

I've been in the land of online RP for a long time now, not saying that's any better than someone who's only been around for a few years, and I generally block out the snobs. If they throw attitude, I leave. It's easy enough. I've been known to take extended breaks from internet crap because I just get tired of the drama.

As a female RPer, I cannot deny that a board full of female writers has a tendency to breed drama, but that's the same as a class full of girls or a work place full of women. It becomes competitive, and while competition can be healthy it can also smother creativity.

I completely understand your stand point, but there are going to be snobs in every field of study, and you're going to find snobs just about everywhere you go. It's a sad fact of life. :<

As a writer who is a Science major and pretty much steers clear of the English Department on the whole, I don't necessarily feel ostracized in roleplay because I'm not a frilly writer - I'm one of those writers that stuffs things with puns and wordplay, because I find it amusing. I am NOT a very serious writer, and my writing style IS very casual, and far from eloquent. But I don't think the vast majority of people care either way - I know some roleplayers that prefer my kind of style to the high-brow literary kind. I know people that don't like my style, too. It's all a matter of taste, really.

By the same token, it's not fair to lump all English majors in the same pile either. There are all sorts of breeds of writers, and upon that, they're all individuals. I don't judge or care whether a writer is a Science Major, English Major, or High School dropout, as long as they're a coherent writer. In short? Stereotypes suck.

On the female writing thing? I'm a female writer, and while I'm not offended by it, but I can't say I agree. Thing is, there are tender egos of all sorts. I'm more of an androgynous, laid back writer, while others are more gushy with their words, and others are more sterile. And in the online world, where all you see are the words, you can't assume to understand the person behind them and their exact feelings on the subject. That being said, that's part of HOW online communications work - tiptoeing. But it swings both ways, too. If you read with intent to be offended, you will be offended. Simple thing.

To twist the proverb around: Write softly and wear a tough skin. It works both ways. A blunt, straight-forward style can sound harsh and critical, even to those that aren't easily offended, and people DO need to toughen up and quit taking things personally, especially if it means losing out on input because people are afraid they'll be offensive. After all, it's just the internet.

I didn't really want to reply, since i think most people have covered points i was thinking of making... but...

I totally agree with you here, and i am a girl myself. I hate the way girls feel that just because they are women, they can act a certain way, or do certain things that when reversed to the oposite sex is referred to as wrong or somthing. I found it funny reading a RP where a girl came onto a guy really strongly, and was thinking to myself ; "If it was the oposite way around... he would most likly be slapped." Maybe thats not what you where getting it... just came to my mind and i was like "YEAH!" hehe. But yeah, i agree with RyanA for the most part, and i hope that somthing will come along and give you a better opinion some day, just so you can get rid of the "urks" and stuffs.

[EDIT] Please, before sombody bites my head off, i am not saying ALL girls are like this, just most of what I've come across. Please don't smite me and take offence. :sweat:

Sarah's right, RyanA. Not only does everyone on here have the right to address what you've said (and we know that it's a rant and that you can say what you feel (within boundaries set by the staff)) but saying that they are twisting your words on purpose just so they can attack you is a bit off. Some may be doing that, but I'm sure most, if not all, of the people who replied here are just reading what your words say to them and replying to that. We have no way of knowing what your meaning is for each and every sentence, unless you go through and explain them several times until everyone understands. We can only rely on our own understanding and go from that.

I said it before and I recap - we know it's a rant. We know it's your opportunity to vent. I have not seen anyone trying to attack you, nor reacting very much at all, actually. People believe that parts of what you believe are wrong and are attempting to show you why they think this. In a way, you are doing what you complained about and rejecting input that could help you.

I don't know about other females here, but I'm not insulted by your rant at all and I feel there's no need to apologise. I'm just replying to points as I see them. You seem to be trying to make it an 'us against them' thing, but we really can't help being female (promise) and although some do use that as an excuse to be cows, others really do not.

Well, you did kinda attack women. Even in that statement. Men can do that too. As I said, we can't help being female and moreso we cannot help that there are more females than males at RPG-D so that it seems like we do it more. I would not call that 'estrogen' anyway. To me, estrogen is what will have your testicles punctured with a stiletto if you make comments about 'the time of the month' if a woman is just having an off day or what makes women cry in soppy movies. Political correctness is what will have you lynched if you phrase something incorrectly and human nature is what makes us add our own ideas and biases to what we read or hear.

As sucky as you may think it, critique often has to be phrased so that people can see its worth and their own worth. It doesn't have to be changed or held in, you just have to learn how to talk to people in such a way that they know you are trying to help them and not just ego-stroking yourself by pointing out how bad they are.

Ryan, your post sounds a lot like what the Sciences Majors use to diss the English Majors. Hearing these arguments are hilarious, even in my uni. And I'm not saying that's really a bad thing. Good thing I'm a major that's considered at my uni as being relatively "neutral." My minor on the other hand is basically grouped in the same boat at Political Science, and those are some of the most hated majors on my campus.

Anyway.

As is well known, I'm a woman. (WOA, RLY?)

I see what you are getting at, and I'm not offended in the least. And I'm sure you are saying that it's not all of us.

Ashbean - it's not really the fact that "it's the way women work." I know we can be bitchy and hellacious, but the fact that you have to be that way ALL THE TIME? Gets old. And that excuse only works once every 28 days.

Yes, we may have egos. But it's up to us to get over our egos. Ultimately, too many people are under the assumption that "I'm better than you" and it's tiring. I RP for the hell of it, not really to try to outdo someone. But not everyone works by my example, and this crap is SRS BIZNIZ to some people.

To SaraJ and Emma,

I have never said in any post that people could not respond or react. Of course they can.
Emma, some of your post confuses me and I know sometimes you sort of just skim threads because you are busy. I just am not sure you have the whole picture on this thread.

I didn't make it us against them. It's me spewing. There is no 'us'. I am in this boat all alone.

Rhi-Rhi

Man, you always get me and you always make me feel better.

Yes, I agree. What I hate is people who do buy into the idea their gender affords them certain privileges. I think that is my true gripe.

What I see is there are feminine and masculine ways of communication. Neither are exclusively right or wrong until they hit their polar side. I know guys can be assholes. But what I see differently in communication (especially in writing) with men, is they don’t lose it and get all indignant and upset. Men learn early how to take criticism. Many women seem to learn to be afraid or it. I am not saying a guy is going to openly agree with every bit of critique, but he is usually gone to chaw on it awhile and decide if it’s useful or not. He might ask questions to get more facts. What he isn’t going to generally do is an in-your-face-how-dare-you-say-a-thing-about-my-work stunt. For one, he’d look like a weenie, and generally he isn’t socialized to knee-jerk.

Gowd, thanks for stepping in to offer this especially when you weren't really comfortable doing it. You do get it. It's not about all women. It's about the ones who use gender as a weapon when it serves them.

Kryptic-

You are absolutely right on all counts--but boy it felt good to do it anyway.

I only paint when I am really pissed off. I never said the words female roleplayers in my posts. I did talk about female people on here (not a roleplay board). I did talk about females in my creative writing program (vicious lot). I didn't say I had a problem with female roleplayers.

I get your point, but anger and rationale usually collide. That was where I was at. Anger trumped rationale. Happens every time.

Rancidxdreaming, thanks for understanding. I know there are snobs everywhere. I was just on overload.

That's not what I was saying at all. There are inherent differences between men and women, and we tend to handle things differently. A female can react in a way that's completely natural to her, and a male can see it as being 'over-emotional' or 'b*tchy,' when they're really not. I was just pointing out that maybe he's not understanding the actions or words of some of his fellow RPers, etc.. I don't believe that women have an excuse any time of the month to act ridiculous, anyways.

Actually, RyanA, I've been reading every post in this entire thread. I just know I'm not the best at conveying my ideas OOCly. When I said 'us against them' I meant you (a male) against females. As it appeared to me.

I know you were angry so I am not actually serious when I say this, but it would've helped if that'd been in your first post :p

Ash is right. There are differences between genders, ages, races (yes, because of different cultures) and personalities that can make one person's actions completely insane to another person, even though they are perfectly rational to the person doing the action. The way I react, for instance, makes perfect sense to me but makes other people (especially males) gape at me and wonder where the hell my head has gone. In the same way, when they react to something aggressively (as my male friends tend to do) I think they are horrible barbarians for even thinking of such things as they do.

Gotta disagree with you there, though. Sometimes I start crying when I'm not even emotional. I can be talking about something completely mundane (say, what's on telly) and then I'll have to stop because I know I'm going to cry. If that's not ridiculous, I really don't know what is.

Hey, here's something funny: when I was, very briefly, on a site where everyone thought I was a guy (long story... to make it short, I was new to RP and didn't understand that the cbox was OOC), people took my arrogance much better than they took arrogance from a girl. Go figure. I suppose it works both ways. Men seem to be, in a certain sense, less threatening in their arrogance. Me, I don't care--I don't tend to judge people based on gender, and I have some issues with misogyny myself. But it's interesting to think about.

Over and out.

Hey Emma,

Yeah, I know. But a wave of anger isn't really about seeing clearly or feeling clearly. It's just spewing. This thread became a gender debate. That wasn't what it was about.

I wrote a 17 paragraph rant. Of that 17, I mention frustration with women's communication and over-reacting in two paragraphs near the very end as I was decompressing. If you read closely, it's not a women hate rant. It's an 'I hate freaking stupid, uppity, arrogant, idiotic, narcissistic writers --all of them. Gender aside. Read the first 17 paragraphs. It's just about making fun of genderless writing majors.

It was more of a moment of of targeted misanthropy---not misogyny. To label it misogyny is itself an over-reaction. In that moment, I hated everyone associated to snotty elitist writing.

However, it seems most who write on here are women and I felt irked by over-reactions on this board and having my posts twisted out of context in other threads. In that rant moment, you guys got it. But to turn it into a women hating rant is inaccurate.

For all you know, I could be a woman. I have never specified my gender on here.

The fact that you mentioned gender at all made it directed (at least in some way) towards females. There were some people defending English Majors also, and Creative Writing Programmes (or agreeing with you). The fact is that most of us are women, so we can reply to that because it has something to do with us. I'm not an English Major and I never plan to be and I have no knowledge of them, so I couldn't reply to it. Nor do I have very much knowledge of snobby, snotty writers (whether on RP or on here) so I couldn't really reply to that part (which I realise was the majority of the thread). Therefore, pretty much the only thing I could reply to was about women, so I did!

You unnerstand?

Also, I haven't seen a debate in this. There've been opinions cast in, a few people talking actually to each other (like us two) but not really enough to class it as a debate in my mind. And if I saw a debate I'd run. Trust me ;)

I assumed the 'Who does RyanA think he is anyway?' comment meant that you were a male. Doesn't really matter anyway, does it?

This is what keeps getting me. I think it's because I associate words with certain meanings, so 'twisted' to me in this context speaks of a purposeful action, rather than accidental. That's what I've addressed in my last two posts. I don't even know if you're seeing that, or if you're just meaning it happens somehow.

As I've said before, I haven't really seen any over-reactions. I'm sure I would in your shoes, because it's your rant and any replies apply to you (as the OP generally sees it, I'm guessing?), but from where I'm looking no one's really being over-reactive. Not to the point of trouble.

And I'll say again that we can't really help being women. I'm sorry, but we can't! I don't think you'd like it if RPG-D discouraged honesty and plain discussion, so if we stopped people replying in plain words to what they are reading from rants like these we'd really be shutting that down.

I don't really know why I'm replying to this. It's because I hate it when people can't at least see the other side (me including) so I will keep chasing after that bone until I've got it. Sorry if I'm annoying you ^_^ Just wanting to see your side, and you mine.

Wow, in my university the English program just produces Marxists! :p

I guess I can generally sympathise with Ryan's problems, insofar as snobbish roleplayers. People who rip apart the creations of others irritate me something fierce. This is especially true for me in roleplaying, because this is just a hobby, a game, a recreational leisure activity. It annoys the crap out of me when my theatre major friend rips on an entertaining movie and praises a totally crappy and unwatchable one ("The New World") because of the academics of acting. I want to sit down for an afternoon or evening and just be entertained. Similarly, when I'm roleplaying, I just want to have fun. This type of roleplayer is the master of ruining fun.

I agree with the previous poster who pointed out that forum roleplaying developed out of tabletop RPGs, LARP and the like. These are pretty good sources of roleplay snobbery, too - godmoders, rules lawyers, roleplaying "veterans". Snobby roleplayers of this variety tend to cultivate a view among themselves that the "serious"/"respectable" roleplayer is an adult, at least in their mid-20's but preferably in their 30's, who (to be honest) has wasted their life in pursuing their hobby. Now, these people might not have English or Creative Writing degrees, but they'll rip on a person's writing just as well - it just comes out of the fact that they don't like young players, in my opinion (and like someone said earlier, most gramatically poor writers tend to be young). So maybe an inflated self-image of being an academic or "artiste" is what motivates some RP snobs, but certainly not all (or in my experience, most) of them.

Oh, great. Now there's an improvement. o.O

Well, thanks for responding. The snobbish and elitist stuff won't go away, I'm sure. I think it surprised me to find it in the RPG world. I never RPed til a few years ago and I was intrigued with it because it was "shared-storytelling". That was something I could relate to from my background. I thought it would be a creative and yet cooperative sort of interchange.

In writing programs, story becomes competition and people comparing their personal standards of achievements against others. You find those that are openly aggressive and in your face, then you find the ones who act with this fake humility and are all about passive-aggressive drama, claiming humbleness and yet blabbering on about their own dramatically high standards that nearly cripple them in reaching for ..that...one... perfect... word....

*gag*

It's so all about them.

I thought the RP world would be different, not about competition. I was wrong.

Boy, I am learning that. I think it stinks. I am tired of going to boards and reading the critiques on applications and how the members cow-tow just to be "accepted". If the critiques were fair, that would be one thing--some are just ridiculous and rude.

I was under this false assumption about the role playing world and it's sad really. It could be a way to allow unique people with unique voices to come together and share in a process creatively and freely. Instead, it's wrought with so many rules and so many ego trips, that it does the opposite. Where story should hold people together, this RP business rips it apart.

John Steinbeck talked about the importance of story and I hold this close to me when I think about writing. He said, "We are lonesome animals. We spend all of our life trying to be less lonesome. One of our ancient methods is to tell a story begging the listener to say-and to feel- ‘Yes, that is the way it is, or at least that is the way I feel it.’ You’re not as alone as you thought."

Story reading, storytelling, story creating--it's not to set you apart from the world. It's to make you a deeper part of it. If you are a story creator, a writer, you should not put yourself above the masses, but truly be among them. If your goal is fame, and people dazzled with your brilliance, you have lost that point.

That's the problem with 'elite' communities: they're self-reinforcing. I.e., if everyone is pretentious, then they perpetuate it. It's much like the PHIL department here, where if you don't name-drop Foucault and Wittgenstein, you're the odd one out. It's a vicious cycle.

On the 'quest for the perfect word.' Usually just an excuse to write as little as possible for the maximum amount of praise. Sometimes, however, I do believe really sensitive people piss themselves off so much seeing 'wrong' words in their writing that they can't go forward until they get the right one. I'm not quite that extreme, but I have a friend like that--he doesn't brag about it, it's just how he is.

In other words, I don't think it's the style that's the problem; it's the mindset, bragging, self-righteousness, etc., since writing IS supposed to entertain. I mean, that's what it's for.

Ryan,
I'm sorry your ideals were a bit rocked. I can sympathise; I used to think the same way about roleplaying, mostly because I didn't (and still don't) see a point in behaving that way. I RPed for 9 years in a rather closed RP community - owing to the structure of the host service, it was less common for new people to come in and the various RPGs were largely interconnected - and the elitism got out of control. The forum I co-admined at was largely above it for a while, but inevitably some people just couldn't get over themselves, and a funny thing happened. While everyone was going on directly or indirectly about how wonderful they were, the game turned to utter crap.

I don't think anyone should have to cow-tow to anyone else to be accepted. That sort of behaviour does have a psychological impact on a person, and an admin is just ruining their own game by making their players submissive toward them. Players who are too confident in themselves will eventually stop competing or searching for the "perfect word", and they'll begin to stagnate (witnessed the phenomenon many times); players who are not confident in themselves won't take any initiative, and will actually become "yes men" and feed into the over-confident individual's ego while their writing gets worse and worse.

Smath,
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph. It's all about mindset; you could be a talentless RP snob as easily as a talented one! Speaking of people who write for praise, I've known a few somewhat egotistical players who purposely injected huge, obscure words into their posts - specifically so other ("lesser") people won't understand. Wow.

I can be like your friend from time to time x_x It sometimes takes me an hour (or hours) to write a post when it would take others 20 or 30 minutes, because I have a terrible habit of self-editing before it's finished. I can understand why he doesn't brag about it. I find it incredibly frustrating, actually harmful to my writing if anything, and I wish I could stop!

Ummm, yes, snobs exist. Is this supposed to be news or just a rant to incite the rage of all female members on the site?

I agree, there are many many many stuck-up, pretentious pricks in the world of RP. Guess what? It's not just the RP world. Each little corner of human culture has it's aristocracy that pretends to be superior. Legend of Zelda fans have aneurisms if you draw fanart of Link holding his sword in his right hand because it's not canon. Who cares how much useless knowledge about a game they have? But let them have their little victory, it's not like it changes anything.

What I'm saying is, those few who try and step on all the 'little people' don't matter. What they say doesn't matter; it doesn't change your style or your writing or your identity. It just means you have to step up and ignore them. If it's trivial, forget it. Who cares? Let them have their ego boost, it's not like you're contributing to it in some way by reading their pompous crap.

Just saying, it's not just the RP world.

Personally, most of the roleplayers I've played with in the past have been amazing. They're creative, they're interactive, they help all they can, and they keep getting better. Perhaps I'm just in a different niche of the RP world. Either that or I'm better at ignoring the snots than you are.

Actually it is a rant. And like most rants, it's generated out of anger and frustration. As to inciting the female members--we had finally steered this rant back to the issue of snobbery. I am not going to begin the entire gender debate again. I am not travelling back down that exhausted road again because I have addressed it multiple times in this thread.

I am fully aware that snobs exist everywhere. Here on this board and every other little nook and crannie of the world. Doesn't mean I can't have a moment to be pissed off about it. Hence, the rant in the Rant Forum.

I do know what you are saying about letting them have their moments, but I have seen them plow people over a few too many times. I have seen people who talk their big freaking talk and use language that is inflated simply to try to outshine the next person. Using a twenty dollar word were a dime word would suffice is a pet peeve of mine. Big vocabularies don't make great writers or great thinkers. People who can weave beautiful prose on a simple loom, that's impressive.

I am glad you are well-adapted at ignoring snobs. I didn't know it was a competiton. But yeah, you win.

Again, this was not strictly about roleplayers. It was about snotty ass writers from all areas and all genders. And snobs that write here on this board. I had a burn out moment. So sue me. It happens. I don't say its right or wrong. It just is what it is. I said it before, I won't apologize for being irked and spewing because I did not attack anyone here personally. It may annoy some of you, and you are free to feel what you feel and say what you want to say. So am I. Hell, start and 'I hate RyanA' rant if you like. I won't stop you. Start a club or a boycott. Stonewall me. Ignore me. It still won't make me apologize. I am stubborn, not in that my opinions are right, but that my freedom to express them is entitled in the area I posted and at the time I posted (being pissed off).

I am glad you have had good experiences in roleplaying. So have I with many folks on my board and few others I've written on. I have a lot of respect for the members on my board and the community that they have helped to create. We have good people and good writers and no one is wearing their ego crowns to the board.

LOL, didn't mean to come off as a RyanA-hater. I didn't really address the feminist part because, yes, I noticed that discussion's been exhausted and put to rest. It doesn't really bother me. I'm a girl and I'll admit that guys are pretty outnumbered here. I just thought your wording on that topic was a bit too lofty and, as expected, lots of girls took it the wrong way.

You're perfectly allowed to rant, though. I agree with you on many of your points. The snobs are annoying, and when they do go out of their way to make your life miserable, go ahead and rant. In my opinion, it's better to ignore them because the attention (negative or otherwise) only seems to inflate their fit-to-burst egos. If you've gotta vent, you gotta vent. Just felt like adding my two cents, really. ;)

*raises hand* I'm an accounting major? yeah... guess how good I am in English classes? Yeah not very good. I knwo the basics... I can put a sentence together and such, but I'm far from the level a lot of other are at. but I have a lot of good ideas which is why I adore RPG's. It give me a way to be creative without having to make any of it super public. yeah it's on the Web, but how likely is it to come in contact with someone you know in RL that you didn't introduce to RPing? Not very likely, or at least for me.

The only thing is I've had moments were I do feel inferior because some players like to point out their strengths. I don't post as quickly as a lto of others and My posts aren't nearly as long. But I get to the point and I have the information that is needed to keep the plot and thread going. I have my moments of awkwardness but I've learned to just go with the flow.