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Title: Sparta Vs. Athens


sunny - March 5, 2008 01:17 AM (GMT)
At school we're doing a Sparta vs. Athens debate, and I'm co-captain of the Athenian team. The categories we're going to debate on are military, culture (art, religion, architecture) women and children and government, as well as economy. Anyone have any good sites on Athens and Sparta, or doing something like this, or even have some random information floating around in their head about these two Ancient Greek city-states? :p

Thanks,
Lea :rice:

Gowd - March 5, 2008 06:05 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
he Athenian democratic government, which may have given the citizens in
Greece more freedom, was not the best form of government at the time. The
democracy in Athens cannot really be called a true democracy since there
were several flaws in the governme nt and the way it worked. Only ten per
cent of the total population of Athens actually had voting rights and all
of these citizens were upper class men who were over thirty years old.
Women, no matter what the class or age, were given no freedom at all.
They were first owned by their fathers and then were passed from them to
their husbands who then gave them nothing more than the responsibilities
of managing the household and educating the children. During a meeting of
the Assembly, a policy could be adopted and formed into a law but once the
meeting of the assembly ended, the enforcement of that law was left in the
hands of people who may not agree with that specific law. Also, a rule of
the Assembly said that if a certa! in speaker became too powerful, he
could be expelled from the country if given a majority vote by the
Assembly. This rule could easily be abused and really infringed on the
freedom of speech that most democracies have. The Assembly was made up of
five
hundred men who were chosen from a list of those who were eligible to
serve on the council. Since most of the population was of a lower
economic class, the time taken away from their normal work by serving on
the Assembly lowered their earning potential , causing their already poor
situation to worsen. Life may have been sophisticated and graceful in
Athens but the Athenians were often mocked by opposing countries and other
city-states for having no bravery, patriotism or courage. This was shown
by the
repeated attacks on Athens. If the Athenians had a more war-like
reputation, they probably could have avoided many of those conflicts that
eventually led to the loss of the power Athens held in Ancient Greece.


QUOTE
In the city-state of Sparta, the government was controlled by an oligarchy
in which the power was held by a group of five men called ephors. It may
not seem very fair that the citizens had little say in the decisions made
by the government but, at the ti me, this was the better government. The
Spartans needed to give up comfort and culture for a more disciplined
military approach to control the rebelling Messenians which eventually
turned them into a deadly war machine. Over the years, the Spartan's r
uthless and brutal reputation in war grew so large that other nations and
city-states were so frightened that they would not attack Sparta even
though the Spartan army was not more larger then eight thousand men. The
Spartan men in the army would start t heir military training at the age of
seven and were trained to be tough and very self-sufficient. Every man in
the army would fight with a great deal of passion for his country. Life
in Sparta may have been rough but the res! t of the Greeks envied the
Spartans for their simplicity, straight forwardness, and fanatical
dedication. There was a law in Sparta that banned all foreign trade and
foreign travelling. This kept out all foreign ideas and allowed them to
have the eleme nt of surprise when it came to attacks. This law did not
affect their economy, which was already self-sufficient. Unlike the rest
of Greek women, Spartan women had the freedom of equal rights except for
voting rights. Since men were in the military,
the women had full authority over their households and weren't forced
into a life of only childbearing and housekeeping like the Athenian woman.
The best example of why the Spartan government was better then the
Athenian government happened in 404 B.C.
when the Spartan army were able to conquer the mighty power known as
Athens. The Spartan government was clearly better for that time period
because they could handle the rigors of the military craze which was
growing amongst!
its enemies.

For that specific time period the oligarchy government in Sparta was
better for the Ancient Greeks than the democratic government in Athens.
The government in Athens worried more about the citizens of its city-state
then its own well-being. The Spartan oligarchy may not have given its
citizens a lot of freedom but it was successful in gaining attention and
respect from the other Greeks and their rival nations.


:sweat: I got it all from this site: Clickeh, though there are MILLIONS of pop ups. I copied the info from there ^_^

Another cool site: Clickedy Click Click Click... I don't know ANYTHING top of my head, so i hope these sites help? :sweat: :sweat:

- Gowd

Yoshitsune - March 5, 2008 10:13 PM (GMT)

Aithra - March 6, 2008 04:15 PM (GMT)
I have some good books on Athens. The Rise and Fall of Athens: Nine Greek Lives isn't bad. I'd suggest that you search through your local/school library rather than turning to online sources solely. You can also try searching through scholar.google.com and if your school has a subscription JSTOR. :)

BluMetal - March 6, 2008 04:37 PM (GMT)
Just some random information::

While women in Sparta were higher in society than those in the rest of Greece, there was also the option for children. If a woman had a girl, it was at the father's discretion on whether or not to keep the baby. If he chose not to, he could leave her outside the home and she would be collected in the morning to be disposed of. HOWEVER, not all girls were thrown aside callously because it was the belief that only spartan women could give birth to real men.

While the spartan boys were made rough around the edges because they were trained in combat as soon as they could walk, the women went through rigorous training themselves, to make sure they were strong and that any son of theirs would be strong too.

Apart from the whole throwing girls out thing, Sparta was a great city in which to be female, you had more rights and could speak freely in front of men.



While female children weren't thrown outdoors in Athens (as far as I know) it is exactly as Gowd said, you were owned by your father and then your husband, the only rights you had were over the colors of your linens.




Just thought I'd throw in my few cents. Most of this is from what I learned in school when we had a similar debate. Only we were to choose which city we would choose to live in (in that time period obviously) and explain why. Only a handful of girls in the class chose Sparta (three I think) and the rest chose Athens based solely upon the baby throwing out thing... Our teacher was surprised that even three girls chose Sparta, but was very happy with their reasonings and thusly all got A's... I was def. one of them. ^^ So yeah, done rambling now.

sunny - March 7, 2008 02:34 PM (GMT)
:) Thanks all you guys. Those are great links. A few of them I think I've stumbled upon before but most of them are new. And thank you too BluMetal. :)

- Lea




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